Re: French izard (was :Re: e: [tied] Re: Finnish KASKA)

From: fournet.arnaud
Message: 54111
Date: 2008-02-25

Dialectal French
>>isard = mountain goat, chamois
>This is a Pyrenean word (Cat. isard, Gasc. izar(t), Arag.

Also Béarn. sàrri. Other variants are Cat. ixarso (Benasc),
Arag. sisar, txizardo, xixardo, ixarzo.

None of this word contradicts
a pre-form &iz- "goat".
Sometimes with reduplication.

Does Basque exhibit cases
of first-syllabe reduplication ?

Only PIE does ?

>most likely connected with Basque izarr "star"
>(also "white spot on the forehead", "centro por donde parte
>el pelo").
>I cannot see the point of a word meaning "star"
>when we have words that mean "goat".
>Un détour inutile.

And of course a word used only in languages around the
Pyrenees (Catalan, Gascon, Aragonese, Languédocien) and
meaning "mountain goat", is extremely likely to be connected
to a Middle Eastern word with with it shares almost nothing
phonetically (the Proto-Semitic is *¿in3-), rather than with
a Pyrinean word which is an exact phonological match.
Hebrew &ez "goat"
Arabic ma&iz "goat"
Is an "exact phonological match" (your wording).
This **XXinX** comes from nowhere.

Next point.
A Pyreaean word is not bound to be
proto-basque or the like.
Naive and superficial.

FRench "gave" mountain strem
is obviously from *gheu "gush, flow"
It's not basque and it's 100%
Pyreneese (from PIE)


What is clear is that isard comes from a Pyrinean substrate
word *izarr or perhaps *itzarr. The phonology is impeccable:
it is precisely in words of this origin that we find both
"i-mobile" (cf. isard ~ sàrri with (
Lat) ibex ~ (Cast) becerro "ibex/calf",
Same as *H2_w- "sheep"
with a more archaic shape
*ib-eks (instead of *ow-)
PIE again
(Lat) Ilerda ~ (Cat) Lleida "Lérida",
(Bsq/Iber) ibaika ~ (Cast) vega "valley") and the
alternation /rr/ ~ /rd/ (cf. isard ~ sàrri with (Cast)
izquierda ~ (Cat) esquerra, (Bsq) ezkerr "left", (Cast)
becerro ~ (Arag) bucardo "calf/ibex", (Cast) cerdo ~ (Bsq)
zerri "pig".
What we don't have is a Basque word *izarr or
*itzarr meaning "chamois".
because Basque is today spoken in areas where there are
unlikely to be chamois present (the mountains are too low).
Maybe Basque also lacks a word
for snow and ice !?