From: jouppe
Message: 53965
Date: 2008-02-22
--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
>
> > but for you,
> > which seems to me like a logically thinking person, I shall
provide
> > two solid references:
>
> Oh, there is still hope for me.
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Is it a common habit on this discussion site to turn cranky when you
disagree on something? What is your problem?
Jouppe
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> > In Oskar Bandle (& Kurt Braunmüller, Ernst Håkon Jahr, Allan
Karker,
> > Hans-Peter Naumann, Ulf Telemann; Lennart Elmevik, Gun Widmark
> > eds.),
> > The Nordic Languages. An international Handbook of the History of
> > the North Germanic Languages. Berlin-New York 2002, you will find
on
> > pages 583-593 the article "Contacts with non-Germanic languages
II:
> > Relations to the East" There you will find 59 early etymologies,
> > distributed in Baltic-Finnic and Saami, grouped according to ther
> > datings from the neolithic age to the iron age.
> > There is also a text on Germanic phonological influence on Finnic.
> >
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Just one point on quantity: Out of the 59 etymologies in Bandle only
a total of 23 etymologies (no 1, 3, 4, 6, 7 pohta-, 8, 11S, 13S,14S,
16-19S, 20 apaja, 21-23, 24 käve-, 25 liesi-, 26 maltsa-, 27 paha,
28, 29 suota) are genuinely Paleo-Germanic (=Late PIE pregermanic
dialect or Early Proto-Germanic), roughly corresponding to datings
first or second millenium BC.
Etymologies 30-59 are "normal iron age Proto-Germanic or Proto-
Norse".
On the other hand the list is not exhaustive. The etymologies that
are unmarked above (those without a word on their right or a 'S' to
mark that the word is Saami) occur on my homepage. Those are: kasa,
lansi, lehti, kaski, rohto; arpa, hauta, kansa, sata-ma. But on my
homepage are also other paleo-germanic words like hakea, heittää,
hylje, kutsua, kärsiä, köyhä, löytää, mahtaa, mallas, muoto, nauta,
otsa, palsi, parsi, pyrkiä, pöytä, rasia, ratsas, salvata, saura,
sija, susi, vitsa. That makes already 56 etymologies from the early
metal age, meaning BC.
And yet the list is not exhaustive with that number either, because
my homepage i under construction. I am still harvesting the relevant
litterature and the number will increase considerably. There is e.g.
asia, hämä-rä, kallas, karsi, karsia, katsoa, kelvata, muta, paasi,
pyhä, sika, suuri and many others (there are also many more Saami
words, which I am unfamiliar with). And these are (less one single
one only) not my etymologies.
It is simply a futile uphill task to deny Germanic-Finnic/Saami
language contact during the two last millenia BC. There is far too
much 'explaining away' to be done. But feel free to try. I am just
informing you where research stands right now on Finnish etymology
(may be I am underestimating the readers here, maybe some of you know
this research, just that from what I read I reckon most of you
don't).
Again I state my belief that challenging properly published
mainstream research is not doable on a chat board, you need to take
on the ph.d. guys at a university with a proper dissertation or with
a massive and scientifically convincing monograph.
Jouppe
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> > You will also find a Ph.D. dissertation of high quality dedicated
> > solely to the subject of Germanic loans in Baltic Finnic by
> > feeding 'Tette Hofstra Ostseefinnisch' into Google. Even if the
> > research is lacking material discovered since 1985, it is very
> > useful on discussing criteria for the dating of Bronze and Iron
age
> > loans.
>
> Thank you. I looked them up on the national library service instead.
> Those sources Piotr used to refer me poor misguided soul to were
also
> invariably excellent and of high quality. Don't worry. I know the
men
> in the white suits are here to help me.
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I was holding your approach in high regard until know, even if I
disagreed with some views, but this here is a paranoid reaction, such
which is typical when running out of arguments.
Jouppe
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> > And you will find a comprehensive lexicon in progress by feeding
> > A.D. KYLSTRA (A.O.) LEXIKON DER ÄLTEREN GERMANISCHEN LEHNWÖRTER
IN
> > DEN OSTSEEFINNISCHEN SPRACHEN.
> > 2 Vols. Amsterdam & Atlanta, GA: Rodopi,1991-1996. Paperback.
> > LVIII,145;xx,313 pp. ISBN 9051833008
> >
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Of this lexicon two volumes have been published A-J and K-O. Up
until 'O' the two volumes cover a thickness of 4 cm. But of course
there are more AD loans than BC loans here.
Jouppe
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>
> > You may have fun looking at the entry 'mato' engl. 'moth' at my
> > homepage. This is an excellent etymology by Petri Kallio. Enjoy.
> >
>
> I did, at
> http://koti.welho.com/jschalin/lexiconie.htm
> and had fun reading:
> moth
> Fi. mato 'worm' < PreF *mac^a-/*mac^o- >
Saami muohci,
> muohcu 'moth'
> Sw. mott 'moth' <~ Early PIr *matsa >
Pashto ma:ay <
> *ma:sijaka 'moskito'
> Gmc. *muþþo:- <- borrowed from Proto-Saami ~>
OInd. mas´a-ka,
> mas´a- 'moskito, gadfly'
> Gmc. not cognate to Indo-Iranian or Baltic (cf.
upper right)
> Lith. ma:a-la 'gnat, black fly'
>
> Torsten
>
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Just to say that the Swedish cognates on my homepage are placed there
for reference only. The "lesser than" sign "<" is accompanied by a <~
in order to avoid the implication that Swedish would derive from the
same original as Finnic, here early Proto-Iranian.
In the case of Sw 'mott' < gmc *muþþo:- which in turn is borrowed
from Proto-Saami.
Again I used too much of my time, and you don't even seem to need my
help.
Jouppe
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