Re: Finnish KASKI

Jouppe, you are confusing me.

Sorry to be dogmatic, but the tongue is in the central position of the mouth
when [a] in father is pronounced or it is not.

You are telling me that the Finnish tongue is never in central position
while vocalizing a vowel?

Patrick

----- Original Message -----
From: "jouppe" <jouppe@...>
To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 4:27 PM
Subject: [tied] Re: Finnish KASKI


Phonematically we still do not have a central vowel in Finnish. But
the back /a/ could acoustically be central if it belonged to another
system. /ä/ is extremely open and fronted.

Sammallahti 1988 uses /å/ for the /a/ to make perfectly clear its a
back vowel. I follow his line in my lexicon.

Jouppe

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Ryan" <proto-language@...>
wrote:
>
> Jouppe,
>
> Thanks again.
>
> I am rewriting your table, hopefully for clarification:
>
> FRONT====================BACK
> Unrounded Rounded--------Unrounded Rounded
> Close i---ü--------------ï---------u
> Mid e----------------------------o
> Open ä------------------a
>
> So, no central vowel?
>
> Sounds a bit different!
>
>
> Patrick
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "jouppe" <jouppe@...>
> To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 11:04 AM
> Subject: [tied] Re: Finnish KASKI
>
>
> */ü/ was part of the original inventory, **/ö/ was not.
>
> Front Back
> Unrounded Rounded Unrounded Rounded
> Close i ü ï u
> Mid e o
> Open ä a
>
> Wikipedia states:
> Rounded vowels were restricted to initial syllables. Vocalic
phonemes
> in non-initial syllables were restricted to two or three. One view
is
> that there were only two archiphonemic non-initial vowels /a/
> and /i/, realized as four allophones as per vowel harmony. Another
> view is that there were /a/, /i/ and /ə/. There were no
> diphthongs or
> long vowels.
> Unquote
>
> Jouppe
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Ryan" <proto-language@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Jouppe,
> >
> > yes, thank. Very nice indeed.
> >
> > But was *ü part of PU or did it first come about in Proto-Finnic?
> >
> > Below, you seem to be saying it was _not_ a part of PU.
> >
> > Patrick
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "jouppe" <jouppe@>
> > To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 7:21 AM
> > Subject: [tied] Re: Finnish KASKA
> >
> >
> > Patrick,
> >
> > As I answered already in another string that /ü/ was part of the
> > inventory from the start. In a separate posting I have outlined
some
> > descriptions on how /ö/ came about. The process is fundamentally
> > different from i-umlaut, since vowel harmony per definition
extends
> > much further and occupies the same phonological play ground as
> german
> > style i-umlaut. See other posting under same string.
>