From: tgpedersen
Message: 53805
Date: 2008-02-20
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm curious about how so many Gmc loanwords entered
> > > before the Swedish invasion of Finland. Was Finland or
> > > part of Finland populated by Gmc speakers before
> > > Finnish speakers arrived? I know, it sounds far out,
> > > but I'm curious.
> > >
> >
> > The 'king' word has the same odd distribution (Baltic Finnic,
> > Germanic, Baltic, Slavic) as the 'ale' and 'thousand' words. I've
> > argued before that the -inga- suffix is Vasconic (Old European).
> >
> > I seem to recall that according to archaeology, a new culture
> > arrived on the shores of Finland 2000 years ago. Some called it
> > the arrival of the Finns. In my scenario, the Germanic language
> > arrived in Scandinavia about that time, so it might reflect that
> > arrival. Or it might have taken place in Eastern Europe?
> >
> > Come to think of it, the *mari/mori "sea" word has the same odd
> > distribution (with Italic and Celtic). Were the Finns late
> > arrivals?
> >
> >
> > Torsten
> >
>
--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "jouppe" <jouppe@...> wrote:
>
> Scandinavian influence on the west and south coasts of Finland was
> strong particularly during the bronze age, but also during some
> centuries of the iron age. Influence at the very end of the
> neolithicum can also be traced in the coastal Kiukais-culture. It is
> doubtful whether this ever involved large scale settlement. The
> semantics of Germanic loans, in comparison with Baltic loans, are
> slightly more biased towards cultural and societal innovations
> (superstratum), even if counter examples exist such as äiti 'mother'
> and intimate body parts like otsa <= *antj- 'forhead', maha 'belly'
> and hartia 'shoulder'. From Baltic there are even more of body
> parts, kinship terms, colours and even names of flora and fauna.
> This has (more than in the case of Germanic loans) been taken as
> evidence for common bilingualism, even exogamy. The Paleo- and
> Proto-Germanic loans by far outnumber the Baltic loans though,
> especially if you count up to Proto-Norse.
>
> The Finns were probably not late arrivals, the mainstream favours
> the comb ceramic culture (predates Corded Ware). Kallios article
> equals the arrival with the Volosovo culture ~ Seima-Turbino period.
> There are two dissenting opinions in Finland though, arguing for
> even later dates. These are isolated opinions so far. Then there was
> one proponent for a continuity theory from Paleolithicum, which was
> refuted some 5 years ago. We don't hear much abaut that any longer.
>
> I pledged earlier not to start discussing migrations and Urheimats
> so feel free to tear this text apart, which is an attempt to
> describe the debate only: I won't defend it!
I checked the supposed Germanic loanwords with what I have at hand
(Dansk Etymologisk Ordbog is my only etymology text of Germanic , but
it's usually reliable)
otsa <= *antj- 'forhead'
DEO
"
II an- pref. ... in Sw. anlete "face", further: ON and- "against",
Goth. anda-, OSax and-, OHG ant- ... . From IE *anta "over against"
... An IE side form *anti- "in the face", ... in Lat ante, Gr. anti
"facing" ... The forms *anti, *anta must be considered originally case
forms of a IE subst. *ant-s "frontside, forehead" surviving in OI étan
(from *antono-) "forehead", Sanskr. ántah. "edge, end, limit", Hitt.
h.ant-s "frontside"
"
Møller: Vergleichedes indogermanisch-semitisches Wörterbuch
"
ánt- 'Ende'
(< voridg.-sem. A.-m-d-, d-Bildung >
idg. t-Partizip von idg.-sem. *A.-m- 'messen'),
idg. ant- 'frons' (als das 'vordere' oder 'obere Ende'), wovon Präp.
ved. ánti gr. antí lat. ante got. and,
gr. ántomai 'begegne', antíos 'gegenüber',
ahd. andi, endi an. enni 'Stirn',
lat. antiae 'capilli demissi in frontem';
idg. ant- oder o-stufig ont- in
sanskr. ánta- m. 'Ende', antja- 'der letzte',
got. andeis an. endir as. endi ags. ende ahd. anti, enti 'Ende';
= semit. A-m-d-,
arab. `amadun 'terminus, finis, the utmost limit, point or reach, each
of the two terms (of the life, the time of birth and the term of
death), time considered with regard to its end, goal',
(bala3a) `amada-hu '(he reached) his utmost term'.
maha 'belly'
DEO
"
mave, ODa maghæ, ... Sw. mage, ON magi,OHG mago, OE maga, of Gmc.
maGan-, to IE *mak- "skin, leather pouch", as eg. Welsh megin
"bellows", Lith. ma~kas "purse", Russ. mos^ná "purse".
"
Møller Vi-sW:
"
2 mak^-
(oder nach der Hochtonform analogisch mok^- ? Reduktion von
*mo:k^- < voridg.-semit. m-Y.-g^-),
ahd. mago ags. maga an. magi 'Magen, stomachus',
= semit. (vorsemit. g^ > semit. d) m-Y.-d-,
arab. maY.idatuN (> neu-arab. maY.de) 'the stomach of a human being'.
"
The last one
hartia 'shoulder' cf. obs. Danish hærde-, is obviously a late loan, ie
after Grimm, which took place some time in the last century BCE, so
I'll leave that out (since by that time, by my chronology, the
Germanic speakers would have arrived in Scandinavia).
But wrt the two others, I have some questions:
1) How come Møller has found supposed cognates of both of them in
Semitic?
2) How come they are both reconstructed (in the mainstream) with
contentious PIE -a- in the root, and have -a- in both Germanic and Italic?
3) What is the evidence that these two words were borrowed from just
Germanic and no other language?
Torsten