Re: Brugmann's Law

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Ryan" <proto-language@...>
wrote:

>

Gentlemen, let's not forget that the Russian phrase in question has
no sense grammatically – unless one adds a default noun (e.g. "pios"
or "tatarin"). The verb is not in future tense. It's either some
form of preterite (< aorist *jeb[ox]U "I f*cked", *jebe "thou/he
f*cked") or a short form of imperative-optative 2nd or 3rd person
sg. (*jebi "let thee/him f*ck"). The latter looks pretty like a
curse < archaic magic spell.

Another "magic" thing about this phrase is that _pies_ might have
been preceeded by _czart_ (< _Czarnybo'g_) or _Piorun_ or smth like
that. Cf. another typical Russian swear which can change from one
register to another: if you say _bog s toboj_ "God [be] with you"
(in the meaning "do what you will, I don't care") it's quite normal.
Then, if you say _c^ert s toboj_ "devil [be] with you" it means the
same but sounds rude, and if you say _x*j s toboj_ where x*j stands
for membrum virile, it will still mean the same but is very obscene.
This again brings us to the problem of originally sacral vocabulary
worn down in profane usage.

P.S. What has it all to do with old good Mr. Brugmann? ;)

> Just a comment on "curse".
>
> Your usage of it seems to be to be overly broad. Properly, 'curse'

is used in two major ways in English: 1) to wish or predict evil on
another; and 2) to blaspheme.

>
> 'I'll f---- your mother' is, in my opinion, not a curse but an

obscene threat.

>
> 'F--- your mother', which is what I thought the Russian expression

meant, is not a curse but an obscene insult.

>
> A curse might be: 'Your mother will be f---ed by a mangy dog'.
>
> The English phrase 'God damn you' is, of course, a real curse

invoking God to harm someone but Christians ignorantly associate
curse with the Biblical prohibition of not taking 'the name of the
Lord in vain'. This refers not to speaking God's name _in_ anger but
_with_ anger, outlawing the ancient practice of berating a god if he
does not deliver fortune. Do ut des was taken very seriously by the
ancients but the Christians have sidestepped the issue with
the 'inscrutable plan' excuse. Very Oriental.

>
> Plain and simple obscenity is also lumped under cursing in this

country but not really properly.

>
>
> Patrick
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Piotr Gasiorowski
> To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 7:48 AM
> Subject: Re: [tied] Re: Brugmann's Law
>
> Mate KapoviÔ wrote:
>
> > Well, "I'll fuck your mother" definitely *sounds* like a

curse... In

> > Croatia, we have a version of this one including the dog.
>
> May you be "blessed/cursed" by a dog? We have it too (<pies cie,
> jebal/>), and the phrase must be quite old. Samuel Linde's

monumental

> Dictionary of the Polish Language (1815) has it (Linde was an

undaunted

> lexicographer, too much in love with words to regard anything as

taboo).

>
> "Be thou cursed with [my] word/hand" is not used in Polish (except

as a

> generally comprehensible Russian phrase, left untranslated). Our
> equivalent is <kurwa twoja mac'> (lit. 'the whore is your

mother'), used

> in full or elliptically slimmed down to the first word as a

general-use

> "shock-exclamation". This too, seems to derive from a plain insult
> rather than a religious formula.
>
> Piotr