Re: IE *p and *b

From: Patrick Ryan
Message: 50778
Date: 2007-12-09

Well, perhaps not simpler?
 
But two stops (t?, th) and two affricates (t?s, ths) is pretty simple.
 
Perhaps you would care to give a few examples that I will try to illustrate through my proposed system?
 
I have been looking for many years at the alleged cognates to try to establish what are the conditions for this 3-way split. I have yet to find the answer.
 
We have doublets like PIE *beu-/*bheu (from *p?o, I think). We have PIE *wi/i: (from *p?ay-, I think). And from *p?ay-, Sumerian be-4 (*bê ?), divide, allot; Egyptian *pj, divide (analyzed from *pj(3).t, offering); Sino-Tibetan, *pij, give (Starostin); Tibeto-Burman *b/pe-s, break into pieces Matisoff).
 
But we also have *p?ayto, collection of pieces, from which PIE *baita:, tent; Egyptian p(j)t, sky (tent).
 
 
I can see no pattern.
 
 
Patrick Ryan  
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: etherman23
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2007 9:40 PM
Subject: [tied] Re: IE *p and *b

--- In cybalist@... s.com, "Patrick Ryan" <proto-language@ ...>
wrote:
>
> My own view is far simpler.
>
> I believe that stops had four manifestations in each articulatory
position (labial, dental, palatovelar) : glottalized, glottalized
affricate, aspirated, aspirated affricate, with the following PIE
equivalents: t? > d; t?s > dz > dh; th > t; ts > th, merging with t.

I'm not sure how this is far simpler. We both posit 4 series for each
position, but two of yours merge in PIE. I posit the series of
voiceless aspirates to account for examples of correspondences that
are hard, or impossible, to explain with 3 series.

> One would expect p? to have simply become PIE b but instead, some b
> bh; and other b > w with a small number of b remaining b.

What are the conditions leading to this 3-way split?

> The evidence I have for b > w comes from cognates in what I consider
to be related languages: PIE *wi/i:, apart; Egyptian pj, *divide;
Sumerian be-4, divide, allot.

Is it fair to say that *b > *w before *j? Would we expect to see
variants like *wi v.s. *bei or *bHei?