Re: [Courrier indésirable] Re: [tied] Anser (was: swallow vs. nighi

From: Patrick Ryan
Message: 50618
Date: 2007-11-27

Master Fournet:
 
My dictionary says bìn means 'calf of the leg'. Forgive me if I trust it more than you.
 
Starostin has *PinH.
 
As far as the unlikeliness of glottalization to be dropped, a whole school of PIE linguists reconstructs glottalized stops as the basis for PIE non-aspirated voiced stops. You are, as usual, the outsider on this question.
 
The voiced correspondent to *p?f is *bw.
 
 
Patrick Ryan
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 2:22 AM
Subject: Re: [Courrier indésirable] Re: [tied] Anser (was: swallow vs. nighingale)

 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 6:10 AM
Subject: [Courrier indésirable] Re: [tied] Anser (was: swallow vs. nighingale)

Richard:
 
I am rather dubious of a process such as you describe.
 
I confess my familiarity with Sino-Tibetan languages is mostly with Mandarin, and I am only passably familiar with it.
 
However, I take, for example. Beijing bìn, 'calf of the leg'. which I consider a possible cognate with PIE **bhein- (Germanic *baina), 'leg'.
===========
A.F
BeiJing bin4 means "knee-cap".
According to the phonetic component of the character, and modern dialects,
it can be reconstructed as *patin.
Compare BeiJing bin1 "guest" < *badin with Tibetan bd-ag with a different suffix.
this means that *patin shares neither phonetics nor semantics with *bhoinos.
============ ========= ========
 
This suggests to me that *bh corresponds to Mandarin b ([p]), which contrasts with Mandarin p ([pH]).
 
 I think it likelier that Sino-Tibetan *PinH shows us that rather than from *bh, the likelier antecedent is something like *P?F, where the glotalization and spirant (deaffrication) were dropped.
=========
A.F
Are you aware that glottalized is a strongly marked phonological feature,
that is unlikely to be dropped,
rarely occurring with labials stops,
and hardly compatible with a fricative like -f- ?
Is there a language on this planet with a phoneme like /p?f/ ?
============ ========
 
The Proto-Language form I reconstruct for PIE **bhein- is *P?FO¿N.
 
 
Patrick
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2007 5:28 PM
Subject: Re: [tied] Anser (was: swallow vs. nighingale)

--- In cybalist@... s.com, "Patrick Ryan" <proto-language@ ...>
wrote:
>
> Richard:
>
> Thank you for the information.
>
> But no one has reconstructed them for Sino-Tibetan, right?

There's no certainly sign of them in Matisoff's 'Handbook of
Proto-Tibeto- Burman: System and Philosophy of Sino-Tibetan
Reconstruction' (accessible via
http://repositories .cdlib.org/ ucpress/ucpl/ vol_135/ ), though some
languages have acquired them. Incidentally, its Appendix A seems a
good reference for reconciling reconstructions of Chinese phonology.

> What do you think?

I'll take advice from the expert phoneticists here, but [bH] might not
be an unreasonable representation of a stage in which the voicing of
stops is being transferred to breathiness of the following vowel, as
happened in most of mainland East Asia. The stop usually ends up as
[p], but in some langauges it ends up as [pH].

Richard.