Re: swallow vs. nighingale, SWALLOW

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Grzegorz Jagodzinski"
<grzegorj2000@...> wrote:

>
> ---- Original Message ----
> From: stlatos
> To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 8:15 AM
> Subject: Re: [tied] swallow vs. nighingale

> > Not at all; if there are other Latin words with l>r in a specific
> > environment they could show a regular rule.
>
> Could a rule be irregular :-) ?? (Eng. "rule" < Latin "regula")
>
> But seriously: could you list words with l > r and without this

change, and

> formulate the rule first than negate my words?

I think the change is l>r. between V_V if followed by n., but more
exact conditions for the environment may exist. I reconstruct many
more sounds for PIE than most, which incidentally allows more regular
rules.

> > The change of *gWdelu+ >>
> > hiru:do: 'leech' suggests it is so.
>
> One example, or even two examples, means no example (especially that

there

> are more differences between Greek bdella and Latin hiru:do:,

including the

> vowel in the root).

It was probably contaminated by *gYher+ 'grasp', and maybe hirundo:
itself. Sometimes e>i by a pal. in Latin; the rule in this case may
be e>i/#CY_C+sonor. [or only specific combinations?] especially if o>e
in the same position later.

Instead, please extract from a Latin dictionary all

> words with intervocalic -l-, as well as all words with intervocalic -r-
> which have -l- in Greek. Compare both lists, and formulate rules...

Well, one rule already exists and is well-known: l-l > l-r with
many examples.

> If you
> don't, I will be stating that searching for such rules means waste

of time,

> and that the difference between Greek and Latin forms is due to

IRREGULAR

> development, not due to phonetic rules.
>
> Instead of believing in non-existing rules (prove if I am wrong),

I'd rather

> believe in "exceptional" rules - in out example, that -l- can yield -r-
> WITHOUT a rule.

It can, from dissimilation or assimilation, not all of which is
regular. In this case, since hiru:do: and hirundo: both have l>r
_and_ have such a similar environment (nearly identical), a rule seems
like a good possibility. Even if the env. were something very simple,
like i_u, there aren't enough examples to make it easy to prove either
idea.