Re: [tied] Renfrew's theory renamed as Vasco-Caucasian

From: Patrick Ryan
Message: 50085
Date: 2007-09-26


 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 12:50 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Re: [tied] Renfrew's theory renamed as Vasco-Caucasian



 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 11:48 PM
Subject: [Courrier indsirable] Re: Re: [tied] Renfrew's theory renamed as Vasco-Caucasian



 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 3:24 PM
Subject: Re: Re: [tied] Renfrew's theory renamed as Vasco-Caucasian



There is no PIE "vowel" phoneme *u; it exists only as an avocalic allophone of *w.
 
Patrick Ryan
 
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PIE definitely had four vocalic phonemes :
/i/ /o/ /u/ and /a=e/.
You are confusing morphology and phonology.
This avocalic allophone of *w is morphology not phonology.
 
***
 
I never fail to wonder at those who proclaim such nonsense.
 
Well, you can persuade me of your view by doing something simple:
 
1) list 5 PIE verbal roots of the form *CiC-;
 
2) list 5 PIE verbal roots of the form *CuC-.
 
I will not be holding my breath.
 
PR
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***
four phonemes? Utterly wrong!
 
What in Heaven's name leads you to believe "/a=e/"? This is pure fantasy.
 
PR
============ ========= ========= ==
A.F
/a/ is the basic universal vowel in every mankind's language.
So it must have existed in PIE
(Sorry but I believe PIE is not just a fictional exercise in order to create a forum)
So /a/ existed in PIE, but tradition has it that Brugmann a2 is written <e>
to be read as /a/ when you are a linguist trained in phonology.
No fantasy at all.
I believe in Phonology. Organs never lie. People do.
I am afraid you are a little bit tender and soft in Phonology.
 
***
I have no doubt that /a/ is quite common but that does not mean that it existed in every (proto-)language. Arabic, for instance, has /a/ only as an allophone of the much commoner /æ/, transcribed as <a> in classical Arabic.
 
To read PIE <e> as /a/ is simply illogical. PIE <e> appears as /e/ in most PIE-derived languages.
 
PIE *e/*o/*Ø probably at the earliest was one vowel. What it actually was, we do not know (/Ә/ ???). It may also, of course, have been /a/ but at the stage where regular Ablaut emerges, it would have had to disappear.
 
 
PR
***
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***
 
In the word kuH2on : -u- is a PIE vowel
treating as a vowel, in Greek and in the other languages.
 
It is a pity your are completely in the dark,
Get yourself a Handbook of Structuralism from the 50ies.
You may be a good comparatist
but as a linguist, you are not worth much.
 
This is the problem with letter-games :
it is not phonology : it is nothing but flapdoodle.
 
***
I think you may be the one lacking in linguistic knowledge.
 
EVERY PIE root has the form *CV or *CVC.
 
 The permissible vowel  (*V)is only *e or *o.
 
Patrick Ryan
============ ========
Yeah ! Good boy !
You believe the fairy tales you are told :
 
What do you think about :
 
Standard PIE : wrugh-yos "rye"
Thracian and Macedonian : briza "rye" from *wrigh-ya.
 
Can you not see that *i and *u alternate in *wr_gh- ?
 
Try to think by yourself !
 
I am a bad boy :
I have this compulsive reaction to check everything I am told.
 
*e and *o are the most frequent permissible vowels in a consonant skeleton,
"most frequent", nothing more.
*i and *u also exist, but they are rarer, not impossible.
 
Sorry to ruin your (shallow) certainties
but it is for your own good.
 
***
I believe your certainties are shallow because you cannot seem to argue your "points" without disparaging the other position.
 
***
 
As for *wrugh-yo-, P0korny has no trouble deriving Thracian briza from *wrugh-ya:, thus necessitating no reason to "alternate". I would be highly surprised to find ANY qualified IEist who asserts an Ablaut-like alternation between /i/ and /u/. 
 
Patrick Ryan
*** 
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