Re: [tied] Re: Basque r and l

----- Original Message -----

From: Rick McCallister

To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 11:09 PM

Subject: Re: [tied] Re: Basque r and l

I just joking about the "foot" to make a point. But I
have seen ezker related by some to the word for hand +
other but I'm not a Vasconist.
Vennemann is interesting and should be read but people
should also read Trask and the mainstream lit. as
well.

--- michelmrvn <michelmrvn@... com> wrote:

> --- In cybalist@... s.com, Rick McCallister
> <gabaroo6958@ ...>
> wrote:
> >
> > You didn't read Vennemann well enough. It's true
> that
> > in Roman times that Basque (not *Bask), rejected
> > initial consonant clusters.
> > BUT Vennemann is referring to Vasconic, which is
> not
> > the same thing or the same time.
> > Vasconic is TV's name for a group of languages
> related
> > to Basque that form a proposed substrate in W
> Europe
> > perhaps 1000 BC or so (my conjectural dates, not
> TV,
> > who I don't think gives dates)
> > Eskuin does not come from Latin dexter. And if it
> did
> > you, you'd have to explain ezker or esker (I
> fotget
> > which) "left" as **deks- "right" + erda "other"
> as in
> > "your other right hand". It makes for snappy
> repartee
> > but nappy lx.
> > It's more likely that proto-Basque *esk- meant
> > something like "hand, arm. side, etc." And -uin,
> who
> > knows? you can relate it to oin "foot" if you
> want to
> > be daring and go out on a limb. Now, as Miguel
> > Carrasquer pointed out, oin may well be related to
> IE
> > and may come from *potVn.
> > And esker, ezker (sp?) that might be *esk- + erda
> > "other", i.e. a taboo form like Romance words for
> > "left" that avoid "sinister"
> >
> > --- "fournet.arnaud" <fournet.arnaud@ ...>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > All this amount of data is fairly complicated.
> > >
> > > If we concentrate on two main hypotheses :
> > > H1 : Proto-Germanic has borrowed a certain
> number of
> > > words
> > > from proto-Bask, or some non PIE western
> European
> > > languages,
> > > H2 : Proto-Bask had clusters *sk- or *st- that
> > > simplified into <s> or <z>.
> > > then
> > > what I think is this :
> > > H1 :
> > > I think that most people (99,9%) will agree on
> the
> > > statement that :
> > > "Proto-Bask or any proto-Bask cognate language
> is
> > > likely to have been
> > > separated from proto-Germanic by either or both
> > > Celtic and Italic".
> > > Hence proto-Germanic is not the most likely IE
> > > language where
> > > proto-Bask words are to be found.
> > > Basically, Vennemann's idea "swims against the
> tide"
> > > ;
> > > Celtic and Italic are the right subgroups where
> to
> > > find loanwords from proto-Bask.
> > > Proto-Germanic cannot be.
> > > H2 :
> > > I personally think highly unlikely that
> proto-BAsk
> > > and maybe
> > > most BAsk-cognate languages ever had initial
> > > clusters.
> > > Apart from *lap?-in > e-zp-ain "lip",
> > > another instance is "right side" :
> > > *dek-ster = BAsk e-sk-uin where *dek > *e-dk- >
> esk.
> > > Initial clusters born thru metathesis uniformly
> > > trigger *e-.
> > > Inherited #sk-an should become *esk- not **s-.
> > > This conclusion ruins Venneman's proposed
> examples.
> > >
> > > Next :
> > > Some "membra disjecta" in PIE can be reassembled
> :
> > > - *konH-mo : ham
> > > - *s-keng- : shin-, shank, heel, etc
> > > It feels strange that nobody has made
> connections
> > > between these words.
> > > Connections seem to me as fairly obvious.
> > > Shin and shank do not require non PIE
> explanations.
> > > Within PIE, they nicely connect with other PIE
> > > words.
> > >
> > > Next :
> > > My point of view is that
> > > Italian zanca or cianca and Italian zampa could
> not
> > > be dealt with separately.
> > > All mean "leg" or "paw" : explaining zanca but
> not
> > > zampa amounts to nothing.
> > > The same is true with Spanish zancudo "mosquito"
> and
> > > Italian zanzara.
> > > One cannot trim data and select one third of
> > > semantically related words.
> > > If zampa is not explained, explanations for
> zanca
> > > mean nothing.
> > > This is another hard blow on Venneman's data.
> > >
> > > I am afraid that most if not all what I can read
>
> > > in the following lines amounts to nothing.
> > > Everything sounds rickety, incomplete,
> > > controversial.
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: tgpedersen
> > > To: cybalist@... s.com
> > > Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2007 5:58 PM
> > > Subject: [tied] Re: bask r and l
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In cybalist@... s.com,
> "fournet.arnaud"
> > > <fournet.arnaud@ >
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > It is Vennemann's contention that
> Proto-Vasconic
> > > did
> > > > once have initial clusters and that eg.
> *sCV- >
> > > zV-
> > >
> > > > A.F
> > > > What examples can you give ?
> > > >
> > > Vennemann:
> > > Etymologische Beziehungen im Alten Europa, in
> > > Europa Vasconica - Europa Semitica.
> > > "
> > > 7.6.24. Schenkel, ae. sceanca; Schinken
> > > Bei Kluge/Seebold heißt es zu Schenkel: "Mhd.
> > > schenkel, mndt.
> > > schinkel, mndl. sc(h)enkel; Diminutivum zu ae.
> > > sceanca, mndt. schinke
> > > 'Schenkel' (es kann auch ein Diminutivum zu
> > > Schinken ... mitgewirkt
> > > haben). Hierzu vielleicht mit dissimiliertem
> > > Anlaut ai. sákthi n.
> > > 'Schenkel'. Vermutlich zu einer Grundlage mit
> der
> > > Bedeutung 'schräg',
> > > die in anord. skakkr 'hinkend, schief erhalten
> > > wäre." Letzteres wird
> > > des weiteren mit hinken usw. verbunden.
> > > Meines Erachtens sollte bask. zango 'Fuß,
> Bein'127
> > > (de Azkue)
> > > verglichen werden; ferner sanga, sango, sanka,
> > > sankho, s.ango, s^ango,
> > > s^anko 'Fuß, Bein [usw.]' (Löpelmann)128, dazu
> > > dort s^ungo
> > > 'Hinterkeule (Hammel, Pferd)', das semantisch
> gut
> > > zu dt. Schinken,
> > > Schunke paßt. Urvaskon. +skanko 'Fuß, Bein'
> wäre
> > > eine gute Grundlage
> > > sowohl für die indogermanischen (wohl vor
> allem
> > > oder ausschließlich
> > > germanischen) Lehnwörter als auch für die
> > > baskischen Wörter, letzteres
> > > nach der Lautregel +sk > s / #___, allgemeiner
> +sP
> > > > s / #___für
> > > Plosive, P = p, t, k (das Baskische erlaubt ja
> > > keine
> > > Anlautgruppen) .129 Bask. s~anku 'hinkend' (de
> > > Azkue) dürfte durch
> > > diminuierende Palatalisierung zu zango 'Fuß,
> Bein'
> > > gebildet sein.
> > > Offenbar ist eine alte, entsprechende
> Ableitung
>
=== message truncated ===

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