Re: RE : [tied] Germanic (Was Re: North of the Somme)

--- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh
> <gknysh@...> wrote:

> > We
> > don't know what the Bastarnae called themselves
> (there
> > are no Bastarnian texts) And if the term was
> coined by
> > Scythians or Sarmatians (="allies"), taken over by
> > Greeks, then passed on to history, that's fine.
>
> But we do know that *bast- passed into
> Proto-Germanic, and Iranian is
> a good candidate for a donor language.

****GK: *bast- may well have passed into Germanic
[what's the evidence that it reached ProtoG rather
than some dialect from which it spread further?] from
Iranian (or Thracian or Dacian for all we know),
without necessarily leading directly to the emergence
of the term "Bastarnae" as a self-identifying
appellative. That distinct process could have occurred
as above.****

>
>
> > Just
> > like "Germani" and many other instances. We don't
> have
> > to make any 0.0000001% assumptions even about a
> > possible Germanic loan from Iranian.****
>
> See above. It must be a loan. If you have a better
> candidate for donor
> language, do tell.

****GK: I agree that Bastarnae is in all likelihood a
term devised by Iranians. I agree that *bast- could be
an Iranian loan. This does not prove your contention
that Germanic originated in Southeastern Europe.****

>
>
> > > > The written record is quite sparse. The
> > > > Skiri and Galatae (=Bastarnae) are clearly
> recent
> > > > arrivals in the southeast Europe area as of
> 200
> > > BC.
> > >
> > > I disagree. Peoples may appear seemingly out of
> > > nowhere given the
> > > right ingredients are present, a small number of
> men
> > > with a project
> > > and a set of languages to make a creole out of.
> >
>
>
> > > With names like Skiri and Bastarnae, you'd
> expect
> > > there to be a mixing
> > > of something, and some 'limpieza de sangre'
> > > sociology.
> >
> > GK: I thought you might expect this in
> practically
> > any situation (:=)))
> It is a relative concept, as you know. Eg. there was
> more of it in
> South Africa thirty years ago than today.
>
>
> > Cf.
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastarnae
> > > esp. Tacitus.
> >
> > GK: Tacitus is writing more than 300 years
> after
> > the emergence of the Bastarnae. Polybius had
> different
> > notions.
> (T)Racist notions have been known to last even

longer.

****GK: Lapsing into non-sequiturs? What's "racist"
about thinking that the Basternae were Galatians
(Polybius)?****

>
>
> Torsten
>
>
>

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