Re: RE : [tied] Germanic (Was Re: North of the Somme)

--- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

>
> *bast- does appear in the Germanic (and Romance,
> bâtir etc) languages,
> but is *not* derivable from PIE *bhe(n)dh- "bind"
> within Germanic, in
> fact it doesn't have an etymology within Germanic.
> However, it is
> derivable in Iranian from that root; Ossetic bætt&n
> "tie", past stem
> (for preterite and ppp) bast "tied", also "package".
> If the question
> hadn't been so decisive for the whole debate of
> Germanic origins, it
> would be uncontroversial, given the evidence, to
> assumer that the
> Germanic root is a loan from Iranian.

****GK: If the Wikipedia info ("Bastarnae" re bast- in
Germanic) is questionable, that's no big deal. We
don't know what the Bastarnae called themselves (there
are no Bastarnian texts) And if the term was coined by
Scythians or Sarmatians (="allies"), taken over by
Greeks, then passed on to history, that's fine. Just
like "Germani" and many other instances. We don't have
to make any 0.0000001% assumptions even about a
possible Germanic loan from Iranian.****

>
>
> > The written record is quite sparse. The
> > Skiri and Galatae (=Bastarnae) are clearly recent
> > arrivals in the southeast Europe area as of 200
> BC.
>
> I disagree. Peoples may appear seemingly out of
> nowhere given the
> right ingredients are present, a small number of men
> with a project
> and a set of languages to make a creole out of.

****GK: I prefer not to take the 0.000001% solution as
to the Sciri, Bastarnae, and Galatae.***

A

> large number of
> people are now involved in running the state of
> Papua New Guinea in
> the language called Tok Pisin; would you also ask
> where the Tok Pisin
> people arrived from?

****GK: I might, if I was told "the Tok Pisin are
running Papua New Guinea" (:=)))****

> With names like Skiri and Bastarnae, you'd expect
> there to be a mixing
> of something, and some 'limpieza de sangre'
> sociology.

****GK: I thought you might expect this in practically
any situation (:=)))****

Cf.

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastarnae
> esp. Tacitus.

****GK: Tacitus is writing more than 300 years after
the emergence of the Bastarnae. Polybius had different
notions.****

> What do you think of the article's identification of
> them with the
> Zarubintsy culture?

****GK: Debatable. Not impossible. Classical
Zarubynetska c. was a "mixed"
Baltic/Scythian/Pomorian/Jastorf phenomenon. A kindred
culture in Moldavia (closer to the recorded seats of
the Bastarnae) was a Dacian/Pomorian/Jastorf mixture.
BTW "Late Zarubynetska" (from 150 AD+) is now usually
viewed as proto-Slavic.****

>
>
> > The archaeological evidence indicates that the
> > population of the key Bastarnian territory in
> Moldavia
> > was originally Daco-Thracian as to culture. New
> > elements from the Baltic Pomorian culture and from
> the
> > Jastorf culture appear in the 3rd and 2nd c. BC
> (which
> > is when Galatae, Skiri, and Bastarnae enter the
> > historical sources). The Galatae may have been
> > dominant in earlier times (Polybius thinks the
> > Bastarnae were Galatian), but the known names of
> > Bastarnian chiefs have Germanic rather than Celtic
> > affinities.
>
> Please cite their names. All I could find were three
> hapax names from
> Gibbons' The Decline

etc.http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/13998



****GK: I got this from Henri Hubert's "The greatness
and decline of the Celts", ch.4: CLONDICUS, COTTO,
TALTO (Hubert compares Clondicus to Old Saxon Indico,
Cotto to Old Saxon Goddo, and Talto (Gibbon's Deldon)
to Alamannic names. I wonder if Chlonix is Gibbon's
misreading of Cotto?). Livy mentions the first two in
connection with the war between Perseus and the
Romans.**** >

>
> > Sarmatian contact is even later.
>
> How do we know that?

****GK: The Scythians were their closest neighbours
when they threatened Olbia (cf. Bykova's article on
the Pontos website) From the pov of Iranian loans it
doesn't matter I suppose.****

>
> > So logic
> > would indicate that Germanic was not created in
> this
> > area, but arrived from Pomorian and Jastorf
> locales.
>
> Which would have the same language, you mean?

****GK: Yes.****

>
>
> > Anyway that's my (and not only my) methodology.
> When
> > something seems extremely probable you support it
> > rather than to opt for an alternative which is
> > INFINITELY less probable.
>
> You should also take care to characterize your
> opponent's view with
> capital letters.

****GK: I don't seem to have the underlining function
for Yahoo posts.****

>
>
> > Torsten has a different
> > approach: if there is something that he likes and
> that
> > is not COMPLETELY impossible (even if the
> probability
> > is of the rate of .000001%) he will defend it to
> the
> > death.
>
> No fatwa? You seem to have mellowed over time. I
> would like to point
> out that .000001% is much larger than the reciprocal
> of infinity.

****GK: I do indeed seem to have mellowed.****

>
>
> Torsten
>
>
>
>

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