Re: Re Re: Fw: [tied] Pferd

From: fournet.arnaud
Message: 49574
Date: 2007-08-20

In general,
in the northern part of France,
from the Loire River Northward, (to the Rhine)
that is to say, the place where P-celt Gauls are massively attested
(Let us put aside this "Belgian" affair for a while)
 
you often find the name of tribes under three forms :
 
Nominative plural : tribe's name
Accusative singular neuter : province's name
Ablative-locative plural : capital's name
 
Example : Pictav-i (tribe)
Province : pictav-u > Poitou (territory possessed by the Pictavi)
Capital : pictav-is > Poitiers (at the Pictavi's city/market)
 
Most modern province capitals end with -s (coming down from ablative-locative plural)
while the province often ends with a vowel. (from the accusative neuter)
Bourges versus Berry, Angers versus Anjou  (etc)
 
It is not possible to make out if this traces back to Gaulish or LAtin
because case markers are about the same in the two languages.
In many cases, the Roman name has been replaced by the tribe's name.
This is why I would consider probable that this traces back to Gaulish :
it tends to erase Latin influence and show the fairly strong survival potential of GAulish
under Roman occupation.
 
In some cases, in compound names, you found genitive plural :
in that case, the tribe's name and the defined name are separated by -or- or -eur- (from -orum)
this is a rare case.
Some examples have been created when Germanic tribes began invaded the country
so this proves a full declension system with many cases must have survived after the Roman Empire collapsed.
 
I don't know who first noticed this tribe + province + capital structure
It is quite commonplace knowledge.
 
Reims with -s also fits in the mould.
And Paris as well.
 
As we say in French, I don't want to "make the knife spin inside the wound"
Dear Torsten,
this is one more heavy blow on this "non Celtic Belgian" hypothesis.
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: tgpedersen
To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2007 11:40 PM
Subject: [Courrier indésirable] Re Re: Fw: [tied] Pferd


>
> > As for p-less etymology in supposedly "Belgian" :
> > remes < prem "those at the front".
>
> Possible. Ethnonym? Toponym? Hydronym?
>
> In general, cities are named after the tribe : genitive (+ urbs)
> so the modern city of Reims must be from a tribe's name

Do you have a source for that derivation?


Torsten