Re: Re Re: Fw: [tied] Pferd

From: fournet.arnaud
Message: 49568
Date: 2007-08-20

 
----- Original Message -----
From: patrick cuadrado
To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 11:18 AM
Subject: RE : Re: Re Re: Fw: [tied] Pferd

you said :
 
> Names in supposedly "Belgian" part of the country
> that have clear-cut P-celt origin :
> - oise         the furious one
> - somme     the calm one
> - Ambiani    on both sides of samara river
> - Morini        those on the sea
> - Ardenne    mountain
> - atrebates    those at the back *No
> - veromandi    over the mountains * No
 
* Atrebates = to segmente to Ad-Treb-Ates = Sedantary
Ad- = Very/Much (Intensive prefix)
Treb(a)- = Dwelling/Village
-Ate = Prefix = Those
 
A.F :
Well, this is not that clear.
ad-treb should become attreb- with two -T-
Next point :
According to Irish and Welsh, treb means house, building
Welsh addref : going home
so if we accept this idea, the meaning should be
"those going home"
ad- means "going to, trying to"
it is not intensive prefix.
Something is not very satisfactory with this traditional analysis
from phonetic and semantic points of view.
 
this is why I was trying something different
starting with preposition at-i/ero "back(ward)"
and segmenting atre-ba-tes : those going in the back
See : remes : those in the front
ambiani : those in between
but this is not entirely convincing either.
 
* Uiro-mandui = The horse-man but may be (with symbolic theme) the "centaur"?</ div>
Uiro- = Man
Mandu(s) = Pony
 
A.F :
I deem this idea hugely inadequate.
First, the intrusion of some mythological centaur idea is out of place.
Next, if we accept that mandu could be pony
viro-mandu should be the Poney of Man (What does this mean ?)
I don't understand how this could become a tribe's name.
Next, the hypothesis that mandu could mean pony
is not supported by other Celtic languages.
The root for "smallness" is *menw" attested in Irish and Welsh
with good coherence with LAtin minu-tus.
 
So my proposal is to analyse
viro/vero from upero- above (one more case of -p- lost (=> Dear Torsten Beware !)
mandu mountain
In LAtin the root *mon has a -t- in mon-t-is
but Irish and Welsh have -d- : *menedd-
so it is a perfectly acceptable Gaulish word that *man-d- is mountain/hill
so I maintain that this tribe's name is "those in the uphills of Ardenne".
 
(By the way Bask has mendi for mountain : a probable Celtic loanword)
 
 


"fournet.arnaud" <fournet.arnaud@ wanadoo.fr> a écrit :
 
----- Original Message -----
From: tgpedersen
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 5:04 PM
Subject: [Courrier indésirable] Re Re: Fw: [tied] Pferd

< BR>> As for p-less etymology in supposedly "Belgian" :
> remes < prem "those at the front".

Possible. Ethnonym? Toponym? Hydronym?
In general, cities are named after the tribe : genitive (+ urbs)
so the modern city of Reims must be from a tribe's name

> Names in supposedly "Belgian" part of the country
> that have clear-cut P-celt origin :
> - oise         the furious one
> - somme     the calm one
> - Ambiani    on both sides of samara river
> - Morini        those on the sea
> - Ardenne    mountain
> - atrebates    those at the back
> - veromandi    over the mountains

Do you happen to know their etymologies? I thought the river names
were Old European?

> Instead of relying on Cesar information,
> I guess the first step is to have a reliable cartography of places
> where Celts settlements are well attested

That sounds like a good idea. Do you have one?
AF : I am trying to have one.


 



Pat
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