Re: Latin is a q-Dialect having p- from kW , PIE is similar

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@...> wrote:

>
> On 2007-05-16 11:02, tgpedersen wrote:
>
> > This could instead be explained chronologically as sets of

allomorphs:

> >
> > *penkWe ->
> > *penkWe/*pempe (kW -> p allomorph) ->
> > *kWenKwe/*pempe (p- -> kW by shibboleth reaction) ->
> > *kWonkWe/*pempe (kWe- -> kWo) ->
> > *kWenkWe/*kWonkWe/*pempe/*pompe by analogy (loss of shibboleth
> > action?)
>
> But P-Celtic *pempe can ONLY come from PCelt. *kWenkWe, as PCelt.
> had no *p. It _can't_ continue pre-Celt. *pempe. If such a
> "dialectal PIE" variant existed at all, it has left no traces in
> Celtic! You propose a zigzag derivation (in effect, *PIE penkWe >
> *pempe > PCelt. *kWenkWe > *pempe) to bypass the PCelt. anti-p
> filter, but that's less parsimonious than the straightforward change
> of *penkWe > *PCelt. *kWenkWe > GBrit. *pempe.

Ahem. You have made your derivation more parsimonious by dodging your
own argument from pompe < *kWonkWe < *kWenkWe < *penkWe, which is
therefore also a three-step process.

But you're right about the (traditional) lack of *p in Proto-Celtic.
So I'll propse a scenario like this:

I Some IE people lives next to a people who can't say kW but
substitutes p for it.
II That people takes a piece of the p-people's land and get new slaves
and girlfriends etc., who learn the new language, but say p.
III Status: The High people are so disgusted with all these p's that
they drop all p's. They also *kWe- > *kWo-. Now everyone in the
conquered territory speaks q-Celtic.
IV That new people takes the rest of the p-people's land and etc etc.
V Status: The Low people in the newly conquered land say p for kW, but
the High people are getting so used to it they say p too. Now everyone
in the new conquered territory speaks p-Celtic.


Torsten