--- In
cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "stlatos" <stlatos@...> wrote:
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "alexandru_mg3" <alexandru_mg3@>
> wrote:
>
> > In Romanian is apa , in Baltic too, so you need to increase this
> > areal: a huge part of Europe is affected
> >
> > Marius
>
> I think the Proto-Baltic form was *upYa: < *xx,pY+ (the 0-grade of
> *xaxpY+ < *xaxkYw+). The Romanian seems to be directly from Latin
> aqua < *xakYw+ with kw > p and so not directly related to the PIE
> alternations.
>
If your reasoning would be correct regarding Romanian:
1. Why you don't consider taur- a loan in Proto-Italic or Proto-
Baltic from Proto-Greek etc to be coherent until the end with your
model...?
2. How old is the p-Celtic / q-Celtic difference ? Or the similar
Italic situation? You indicated a Dialectal-PIE timeframe
So only Romanian would remain a unique 'modern case'..in this
model?
This p/kW alternace is too widespread (and I will say too old)=>so
we need a widespread explanation not a lot of small similar
evolutions...
Regarding ap- in Proto-Baltic
- the Sanskrit forms are with a- too to have a PIE time hint
- The Old Prussian form is with a- too not with u- so the Proto-
Baltic form was with a- too (the dialectal split between OldPrusian
and Lithuanian is 'a new one' in relation with a supposed *h2h2 > u
in Proto-Baltic)
the a/u alternation as in Lithuanian upe is another strange
phenomenon very widespread too:
Dacian attested Marisia gave Romanian Muresh...
In Romanian we have in the same time mama & muma (see Muma P&durii
in the Old Romanian Legends)
We have Romanian buruiana versus Albanian barurina.
We have Romanian burta versus Albanian bark from an older *burukta
versus *baruka and so on....
We have Romanian Dunare with u- again, versus Danuvius and the dan-
root
This u- phenomenon belong mainly to a Nord-Danube areal (another
hint for some other funs...:)) even it seems to appear too in some
Albanian words
If this a/u alternace is from PIE or not, or from a PIE-dialectal
h2h2 > u versus a h2h2 > a dialect, needs to be further demonstrated,
but in any case seems that 'it goes from Lithuania till Dacia'...
Passing back to Romanian-Subtratum word APA:
- In Balkans/Dacia : there are attested ancient waters names like:
Zaldapa (Moesia Inferior) and especially Apus/Apos (Western Dacia,
today Banat) showing the existence of ap- forms in Dacia too
- Also in Dacia we have the attested Rabon (today Jiul) and
Arabon (in today Pannonia) that can be 'easy' decomposed in 'ar-
'+ 'abon' < *ap-h3on- showing the alternance apa-/aba- too
- in Balkans we have other attested toponyms based on ap- too:
like Salapia
- In Northern Greece: Rodope is considered a composed based on apa
too
(see Pokorny too for all these forms)
- I considered Albanian bor&/d&bor& < aba:-da-ra/*dz-aba:-da-ra
and Romanian z-&pad& < *dz-apa:-da 'snow' old compounds based on apa-
/aba- ( b < ph3) too...because dh- suffix means 'settled, placed,
solid' and is hard not to link the above words with Dacian attested
Arcobadara < *Arco-aba:dara
So when the above toponyms 'were already there' the Romans
arrived in Balkans and the Balkan Romance > Romanian finally has
today APA as water-word 'like' in the above toponyms and like in the
ancient PIE root ap- too...Pure coincidence? I will not bet on this...
...So based on all these: you cannot demonstrate in anyway that a
Substratum/Dacian influence in Romanian has to be ignored...and that
APA is not a sub-stratual word in Romanian
On the other hand, in Romanian a word like codru 'seems' (to use
your terminology) to be from a supposed Latin *quodrum (unattested) <
Latin quadrum 'in the same time'... so something isn't clear enough
with all these and especially with the timeframe of Romanian kW>p gW>b
The main point here: is that Proto-Romanian 'shared' almost all
the phonetic rules with Proto-Albanian, including that ones of the
pair codru / kod&r but their is no trace of kW>p gW>b for Proto-
Albanian...
In the same time: we have Dacian forms propedila attested together
with the variant procedila/prokedila 'cinque folium' when the Gaulish
form was pempedula
So these are the main facts for Romanian APA topic
Marius