From: Rick McCallister
Message: 47791
Date: 2007-03-11
--- In cybalist@... s.com, "alexandru_mg3" <alexandru_mg3@ ...>
wrote:
> 1. Richard, Miguel, himself, accepted that m will move in the next
> syllable ro.ma ==> He said only that o would remain short.
> I think that 'I demonstrated' that this assumption is false : *od.wos >
> < Grk. o:.dos)
>
> 2. So "it's Only you" that think that m-should remain in the first
> syllable...But before to make such assertion, you will need
> to give a PIE example of VC.V (based on the Old Greek or Sanskrit)
No, for om.V would be post-PIE. However, I did not claim that
resyllabification would not occur, merely that it was not inevitable,
at least in the short term.
> More than this, based on the fact that there is "NO ROOT IN PIE TO
> START WITH A VOWEL" for sure we have "in PIE Always an ONSET in the
> first syllable",
I think that is actually a supposition. What is the evidence for it?
> and I suspect that it could well be the case
> everywhere.. ..(I didn't check anything, it's only a speculation)
I'm not sure what you are suggesting here. One might think that
Classical Arabic was an example of a language with mandatory onsets,
but it isn't. There are a few lexical items and inflected forms that
start with an inital vowel lacking an initial stop. (_ibn-_ 'son' and
_ism-_ 'name' come to mind.)
> I think that we could start a debate if PIE was a "Strictly Onset
> Language" or not.
> 3. Even for your English example (but this is not directly linked to
> the topic, despite your efforts), N in /singer/ siN.&(r) it hasn't a
> Coda-Role, so it's not a good example, it's only 'a trick'...
So what is your analysis of the syllables of this word?
> Please also to try to find an English VC.V example with m please as is
> the case for m in Rome :)(or at least one with a 'true coda')
>
> Here is my help for you:
> amour /&.mur/
> amaze /&.ma:z/
> amount /&.maunt/
>
> It's clear enough? V.CV
Here are some pronunciations given in a book I had as a child:
Allosaurus: AL-lo-sawr-us
Ammonites: AM-mon-ites
amphibian: am-FIB-EE-AN
Ankylosaurus: an-KYLE-o-sawr- us
Archaeopteryx: ark-y-OP-ter- iks
Archelon: AR-kel-on
Birkenia: bir-KEEN-y-a
Brachiosaurus: BRAKE-ee-o-sawr- us
Brontosaurus: BRON-to-sawr- us
At the very least it demonstrates that syllabification using the onset
principle is not a major principle in conveying the pronnication of
English words. (Similarly, syllable boundaries play a minor role in
English hyphenation rules.)
Notice that the <a> in <amount>, <amaze> and <amount> is unstressed.
So, for some VC.V examples with /m/, try:
amateur /"æm.&.tS&/
hammer /"hæm.&/
emery /"em.&.ri/
Now you might try arguing that the /m/ belongs to both syllables, but
it is not a geminate in the way that <penknife> /pen.naif/ has a
double consonant.
If you try to analyse <singer> /"siN.&/ as having a geminate, you then
have to explain why English speakers have great difficulty with /N/ as
a word initial consonant. Certainly a syllabification /"si.N&/
predicts a lack of difficulty. Indeed, one former(?) native
English-speaking member of this list did syllabify the word /"si.N&/ -
and he had no difficulty with initial /N/ in foreign words.
Richard.
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