Re: Hungarian "gold"

From: alexandru_mg3
Message: 46678
Date: 2006-12-15

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tolgs001" <st-george@...> wrote:
>
> A quick and superficial Google search:
>
> Old Iranian *zarna- "golden"
> (also zaranya?)
> Middle Iranian zarnik "golden"; zar "gold"
>
> Then, in Finnic-Ugrian languages:
>
> Komi zarni "golden"
> Mansi sorni "golden"
> Hanti tarenj "copper"
> Mordvin sirne "golden"
>
> So, arany is more then probable old in Hungarian,
> predating the arrival of Protohungarians in "Levedia"
> and "Atelkuzu" (i.e. in central and western Ukraine).
>
> Also interesting the words obviously related
> to argentum and argyros:
>
> Mansi, Hanti ärgen "silver"
> Komi irgon "silver"
> Cheremis vürgene "copper"
>
> (Hanti and Mansi are the closest languages to
> Hungarian)
>
> Authors who dealt with these problems:
>
> Géza Bárczi (linguist, esp. the 1st half of the 20th c.)
> Rédei Károly: Uralisches etymologisches Wörterbuch I–III.
> Budapest, 1986–1991 (UEW.)
> Benedek, Zalán: A magyar szó etimológiája. Veszprém, 2005
> [Etymology of the Hungarian word]
> Benkő, Loránd: A magyar nyelv történeti-etimológiai szótára I–
IV.,
> Budapest 1967–84 (Etymological dictionary, and history of the
> language)
>
> Denis Sinor,
> The Uralic Languages (Description, History and Foreign Influences)
> http://www.schwartzbooks.com/cgi-bin/item/9004077413
>
> Bernát (Bernard) Munkácsi (1860-1937), uralist, turcologue,
> orientalist; works on Uralic languages and peoples; and one
> book (1901) on Iranian and Caucasian influences/loans in
> Uralic languages
>


Some linguistic problems for the above etymology proposed 'with a lot
of efforts' by Hungarian linguists :

Hungarian arany as a loan from Avestan zaranya in some
supossed 'Common-Finno-Uralic times' Despite the similarity of the
two words raised some linguistic issues:

a) In HUNGARIAN we don't have ANY LOST OF AN INITIAL Z-

ZOLTAN IS STILL ZOLTAN and not Oltean :)...etc...

SO ZARANY would still be ZARANY and not ARANY...


b) -any, -anjos are popular suffixes in Hungarian so arany and
aranjos indicate a root ar- not a root arany-


c) The Golden Mines in Transylvania are placed on the Ariesh Valley:
< [e>je;sy>sh ;au-/nonaccented>a-] ]*Aur-esya : so
<A Latin A(U)R- + Magyar suffix -ANY> gave 'arany' with a false
similarity with Avestan zaranya

as a similar false friend GETAE etymology has nothing to do with
the etymology of Massagetae etc...

Finally I want to add that the above 'etymology' is a 'usual pro-
hungarian ideological etymology'....for obvious reason :

Any hungarian, including George, will never recognize 'ar-any' as a
loan from a derived word of a(u)r- belonging to Romanized Dacians /
Old Romanians and translated&adapted by Hungarians using the
Hungarian well known suffixes -any,-anjos :

'This Hungarian linguistic theory' is very simple

"WE DON'T HAVE ANY OLD LOAN IN HUNGARIAN FROM ROMANIAN OR ALBANIAN"

for the simple reason that they 'don't like to imagine' any Romanian
or any Romanized Dacian in that space at the time of their arrival....


I will propose to anybody on this forum to take any
"magyar nyelv történeti-etimológiai..." etc...
and to really check how obvious my above assertion is.

If there is an old word with an unclear etymology in Hungarian the
first languages to search for, are that ones place at least at a
distance of 5000 Km today: these are Avestan, Sanskrit even Sumerian?
etc...for obvious reasons but NEVER Romanian or Albanian


To give you another example

THE hungarians rejects today their own chronicle written by
themselves : Gesta Hungarorum (written around 1200-1300). They
consider their own chronicle as pure imagination with All the names
specified inside as pure inventions only because at the moment at
their arrival in Transylvannia (around 950-1000 so only 200 years
before the times when their Chronicle was written), so only 200
years after their arrival in Transylvannia Gesta Hungarorum (their
own Chronicle) "talks" about

"GELOU - DUX BLACHORUM as the Ruler of Transylvania"


Marius