Res: [tied] Re: Origins of Indo-European, and naturalness of laryng

From: Joao S. Lopes
Message: 46480
Date: 2006-10-26

Semitic *Garb, Garib > Akkadian ereb- "sunset"


----- Mensagem original ----
De: tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...>
Para: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
Enviadas: Quarta-feira, 25 de Outubro de 2006 22:07:29
Assunto: [tied] Re: Origins of Indo-European, and naturalness of laryngeals

>
> >
> > I did not claim that at all.
> >
> > I was trying to express that the original formulators of the
> coloring theory proposed gutturals, which _they_ called "laryngeals" ,
> since they were under the misapprehension that _gutturals_ could
> 'color' vowels.
>
>
> It was Møller who added a third one to Saussure's vowel-coloring
> "coefficients sonantiques" and called them all laryngeals, after
> the fashion of Assyrian, in which language the laryngeals have
> disappeared after coloring the neighboring vowels. He doesn't
> use the term 'guttural'.
>
> ***
>
> I have to say that I am a little disappointed to see that yet

another respondent does not seem to recognize the difference between
laryngals and pharyngals, both of which can be termed gutturals.

In Vergleichendes indogermanisch- semitisches Wörterbuch, Möller
talks of Laryngeals
p. VI
"
Die von Ferd. de Saussure für das Vorindogerm. erschlossenen
'phonèmes' entsprechen den semitischen Laryngalen ..., die im
Indogerm. ebenso wie im Ostsemitischen aufgegeben (oder in dem éinen
Spiritus lenis zusammengefallen) sind, aber in der Färbung des
vorhergehenden oder folgenden Vokals nachwirkten.
"

In the earlier Semitisch und Indogermanisch, he talks of gutturals
p VI
"
Als Ferdinand de Saussure seine glänzende Entdeckung der von ihm
sogenannten 'phonèmes' A und o machte (Mémoire sur le système primitif
des voyelles dans les langues indo-européennes, Leipsick, Teubner
1879), sprach ich alsbald (1879) die Vermutung aus, dass diese
wurzelhaften Elemente, denen ich ein drittes hinzufügte,
konsonantische und zwar Kehlkopflaute gewesen seien (Englische Studien
3, S. 151 Note), und behauptete 1880 (Paul und Braunes Beiträge 7, S.
492 Note 2): 'Es waren . . . wahrscheinlich Gutturale von der Art der
semitischen' .
"

>
> The pharyngals are [h.] and [¿]; the laryngals are [h] and [?].
>
> Why do you not give us an example or two of _any of them_
'coloring' a preceding vowel in Akkadian?
>

I'm afraid Møller doesn't provide an answer there.

Torsten




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