Re: [tied] Re: Of cows and living

----- Original Message -----

From: Piotr Gasiorowski

To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 6:52 AM

Subject: Re: [tied] Re: Of cows and living

On 2006-02-14 13:28, tgpedersen wrote:

> Now if "cow" is connected by ablaut to "live" in PIE, one might
> conclude that it's native to PIE, and that if the Chinese word is
> related, it is a loan from PIE. However, Pulleyblank posits an 
> ablaut a/& for Old Chinese, and the Chinese word appears in Tibetan
> and Burman too. So it seems we are back where we started: it could
> be loan either way (or from a third source?)

I know too little about Sino-Tibetan to have a strong opinion either
way. For my purpose, it's sufficient to be sure that the word is PIE,
whatever its ultimate origin. The fact that it _might_ be connected with
the verb for 'to live' in PIE (but apparently not elsewhere) would be an
argument in favour of its being native there. Gamkrelidze and Ivanov
attempted to link the ST(and IE) terms to Sumerian and Old Egyptian,
assuming an original (onomatopoeic?) velar nasal, but Sumerologist now
agree that Sumerian <gud> had an initial /g-/, not /N-/ (the latter
would correspond to /m-/ in the Emesal dialect, but the Emesal forms are
<gud>, <gu2-ru>). It has been conjectured (Whittaker 2004) that the
Sumerian term is of IE origin.

Piotr

 

***

Patrick

Not sure where you are getting your information on Sumerian but it is probably not the generally agreed view.

 

The UPenn Sumerian Dictionary online, which I presume is somewhat up-to-date, has <gu3-ra>, which is written, in both syllables, with signs unrelated to the form you provide. It gives no examples at all of <*gu2-ru>. I certainly would prefer to think that the <gu-> of <gud> is derived from <gu3> since <gu3> depicts a 'head' = '*skull' = '*testicle' (anything globular), which reflects how I would etymologize **gwou- ('pair of testicles').

This would, of course, be in your notation <Nud>; I prefer <(n)g~3ud).

 

As for an ES <gud>, UPenn does not indicate it as an ES form.

 

There is an attested <gu3 ra> meaning 'shout' which could be extended to 'bellow' for cattle. Since <gu3> is associated with 'neck' (it depicts a container with a clearly marked neck), this could make some semantic sense but it would not be an ES form. It would correspond to PIE *ger-.

 

If you think some PIEists are a bit loose in the saddle, you should take a look at what passes for science in Sumerology: it is really wild and wooly.

 

As for Whittaker, do you not think the animal most closely associated with PIE's is horses rather than cattle?

Piotr