[tied] Re: Question on Albanian sy

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@...>
wrote:

>
> alexandru_mg3 wrote:
>
> > Inherited words:
> > a) Alb. hedh 'to throw' > [sk>h; eu>e] > PAlb *skeud- maybe

*skeud-

> > a > PIE *skeud- maybe skeud-o 'to throw' (root skeud-2 at Pokorny)
>
> In inherited words, *-os and *-o: were lost in pre-Roman times, so

at

> the time of the deletion of intervocalic stops the root-final

consonant

> was also word-final.

No *-o(s) and *-o: wasn't lost Piotr in pre-Roman time: they
passed to ë. And that ë was still there when the intervocalic -d- was
lost...

> By the way, here and below you reverse the flow of
> time (">" should be "<").

You are right.

> > Latin loans:
> > a) prodhoj 'to produce' > Lat. pro:da:re 'id.'
> > b) modh 'bushel' > Latin modus 'measure'
>
> Latin and Romance loans came into Albanian in several waves. Apart

from

> Roman-time loans we have later loans from early Italian and

Venetian,

> and still later loans from Italian (not to mention the occasional
> Romanian one). At the time when intervocalic -d- had already been

lost

> but the medial affricate -3- had developed into -dh- [ð], the

latter

> sound was used as the closest substitute for foreign -d- in

loanwords.

The real timeframes didn't fit your above theory. the lost of d
happens somewhere between sec VII - X when the contacts with
Romanians was ended (and also the contacts with Italians are
problematic too)
IN Adition (to close this point on my side too) there is no dh in
the Slavic Loans, there is Only d, so your theory didn't fit At All.

> Thus, for example, we have <monedhë> (trisyllabic, by the way) from
> Venetian moneda (of course not directly from Lat. mone:ta),

<adhuroj>

> from It. adorare, etc. Still later, the ban on intervocalic -d- was
> lifted and new loans simply preserved it, cf. fëdigë < Ven. fadiga

(cf.

> It. fatica). <modh> may well be an adaptation of any early

dialectal

> version of It. moggio/mozzo < Lat. modius 'bushel (= 16 sextarii)',
> though one would have to do more research to identify the source

with

> more precision.

Your examples (but adhuroj) are for sure recent loans..
Also, I said that we need a tri-syllabic word but I didn't say
that the d was lost in All tri-syllabic words => it depends on the
stress

> > Regarding Alb va 'ford' (possible from Latin vadum (see Rom.

vad))

> > it could well be directly from PIE *wh2dh- / *wah2dh- (see

Pokorny -

> > page 1109)
> > In fact 'will be' for sure and inherited word if no di-syllabic
> > Albanian word shows the lost of d in intervocalic positions : in
> > this case the PAlb form of Alb va 'ford' was tri-syllabic like

PAlb

> > *wa-da-wa to can explain the lost of d.
>
> Hang me if I understand what you mean here. You invent a

nonexistent

> preform to "explain" what needs no special explanation.

1. Piotr, the PIE root is attested at Pokorny PIE *wh2dh- / *wah2dh-
(see Pokorny - page 1109) so is not imposible to derived va from
this root
(-the endind wo- is present in some germanic cognates) (so *wada-wa
*wad-wa is not a 'pure' invention)

> I find it ironic
> that you will do anything to support the connection between Rom.

fluier

> and Alb. fyell but oppose the idea that Rom. vad and Alb. va: are

the

> same word.

I linked the Romanian vad with Latin vadum => see 'Latin vadum
(Romanian vad)' to indicate that the word was present in Balkan
Latin.
So I said only that the Albanian va that could be inherited ...and
I'm not the first person that make this supposion....

> > So Piotr, we need another example of di-syllabic word that lost
> > the intervocalic d (or g or h)...
>
> Jesus, this is getting ridiculous. Will pre (pre:) 'prey, quarry' <
> praeda satisfy you? And this is my last word on this sub-thread.

Sorry,

> but I'm fed up with it.
>
> Piotr

Piotr, the Latin Latin word was praeda and the transition was via
a hiatus : Balkan Latin *pra-a-da (Rom pradã) => (the trace of hiatus
is still visible in Romanian when I pronounce it correctly: pra'a-
dã). So the word was tri-syllabic for sure...


Best Regards,
Marius