Re: [tied] Slavic palatalistions: why /c^/, /c/?

Miguel Carrasquer wrote:

> On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 16:00:11 +0200, Grzegorz Jagodzinski
> <grzegorj2000@...> wrote:
>
>> Only two remarks to this interesting discussion. First, all would be
>> OK if we assume [k] > [kJ] > [c] > [tS] > [S] in IPA transcription,
>> with the palatal stop [c] instead of the obscure t^,
>
> Well, I don't use IPA transcription for affricates and
> postalveolars/palatals, so I would write the above as [k] >
> [k^] > [t^] > [c^] > [s^]

OK about transcription, I also prefer single symbols for affricates, but I
am not sure what [t^] means. Is it a dental palatalized stop? An alveolar
palatalized stop? A postalveolar palatalized aka alveolopalatal stop
(something similar to Magyar <ty>, according to some descriptions)?

> =======================
> Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
> mcv@...

Mate Kapovic wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Grzegorz Jagodzinski" <grzegorj2000@...>
> To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 4:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [tied] Slavic palatalistions: why /c^/, /c/?
>
>
>> Only two remarks to this interesting discussion. First, all would be
>> OK if we assume [k] > [kJ] > [c] > [tS] > [S] in IPA transcription,
>> with the palatal stop [c] instead of the obscure t^, at least for
>> Old French.
>
> This looks odd. I would rather have [k] > ([k'] > [t'] > [c^] > [s^].

So, velar > prevelar > dental palatalized > palatoalveolar? This looks odd.
Velar > prevelar > palatal stop > alveolopalatal affricate (= Polish <c'>) >
palatoalveolar (aka postalveolar) affricate > palatoalveolar fricative would
be more probable, as for me.

> The change [t'] > [c´] > [c^] is attested in Slavic for the reflex of
> Proto-Slavic *tj,

Yes, of course, but it can have little to do with [k'] > [c^]

> with [t'] in Cakavian, [c´] in Stokavian and [c^]
> in most Slavic languages (and of course [k´] in Macedonian which
> should be a development of [t']).

And of course [c] in West Slavic. And [s^t] in OCS and Bulgarian.

> Do you have an example of [c] > [c^], I can't seem to be able to
> remember one (although I think there should be some examples).
>
> Mate

Now I must ask what transcription you apply here. If [c] means a dental
affricate (Slavic transcription), I really do not remember one but it does
not seem to be related with Slavic palatalizations. But if [c] means IPA (=
a palatal stop)... hmmm I am not sure if the process "palatal stop" (IPA c)

> "alveolopalatal affricate" (Slavic c') > "palatoalveolar affricate"

(Slavic c^) is attested in some Indic languages. Without dental palatalized
stops on the way. AFAIK the process [k'] > [c'] (prevelar stop >
alveolopalatal affricate) is attested in Mandarin Chinese.

Grzegorz J.



___________________________________________________________
How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com