Re: Re[2]: ka and k^a [was: [tied] *kW- "?"]

From: Patrick Ryan
Message: 40488
Date: 2005-09-24

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian M. Scott" <BMScott@...>
To: "Patrick Ryan" <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 6:43 PM
Subject: Re[2]: ka and k^a [was: [tied] *kW- "?"]


> At 6:57:04 PM on Friday, September 23, 2005, Patrick Ryan
> wrote:
>
> > From: "Miguel Carrasquer" <mcv@...>
>

<snip>

> I rather suspect that there's little published research
> simply because the question is fairly uninteresting: anyone
> who's paid any attention at all is aware at least of the
> pre-glottalized allophone, and probably of the [?] allophone
> as well. It would be nice to have more data, but the
> qualitative picture is pretty clear.

***
Patrick:

"Paid attention" to what?

How can any picture be "clear" when you have no pixels?

***


> >> >There is evidence that these three variants are regularly
> >> >occurring in the Long Island dialect of American English
> >> >(Huffman, personal communication, September 7,
> >> >2004), the population examined in our study. Huffman
> >> >(1998) found that all three variants occur regularly in
> >> >the Long Island dialect of American English. Furthermore,
> >> >at the end of an intonation phrase (i.e., word-final
> >> >position before a pause), 70% of final-/t/ words are produced
> >> >as glottalized stops, with both coronal and glottal
> >> >articulation. The remaining 30% of final-/t/ words are
> >> >split between the canonical [t] and the glottal stop.
>
> > What I get from this is a contradiction of the assertions
> > made by Ladefoged who makes a following consonant
> > necessary to fulfill the conditions for [t] into [?].
> > Here, a pause is necessary.
>
> No, it isn't. The information given here merely happens to
> be restricted to that context. (What does seem from other
> sources very likely to be true, however, is that the highest
> incidence of [?] is indeed found in precisely that context.)

***
Patrick:

"Obvious"? Unnamed "sources". More empty generalizations.

***

> > And even then, in only _15%_ of the instances does [t]
> > become [?] -
>
> You mean that /t/ is realized as [?]; there was no [t] in
> the first place in these utterances.

***
Patrick:

Read it again. What does "final-/t/" mean? OOPS! How obvious! It does not
mean /t/.

***

> > in the _Long Island_ area.
>
> 15% is rather a lot when set against the claim that it
> happens in no U.S. variety. And at least one of the
> references that I cited a few hours ago adds some
> independent data. The Dautricourt abstract notes that:
>
> In a dataset consisting of over 400 tokens, comprising all
> /t,d#y/ word pairs in hour-long interviews with 16
> speakers, four variants predominated in the following
> decreasing order of frequency: glottal stop, palatal
> affricates, alveolar stops, and (alveolar stop) deletion.

***
Patrick:

This does not bear on the question.

***


> That is, in this specific context the glottal stop was the
> single most frequent output.
>
> Brian