Re: IE Thematic Vowel Rule

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Rob" <magwich78@...> wrote:

>
> You seem to be under the impression that I do not want to admit

that

> you're correct. If that is true, you could not be more mistaken.
> There is no denial here with me.

That was indeed the impression I got in a completely empirical way.

> > Why not work out rules that explain the language as we observe

it?

> > That's what I have done.
>
> I feel that I have done the same. Each of us thinks that the

other

> is mistaken somewhere in his reasoning. We are not working purely
> with evidence alone; we are also working with deduction. It is

our

> deductions that differ and that we argue about.

I do not think you are being fair to yourself. You have constantly
been disqualifying the case at hand as a special one, so that all
good rules are fine, only never where they can be tested.

>
> When relying solely on internal comparison, one can propose any

sorts

> of phonemes that subsequently merged with others that remained in

the

> language, and no one can really prove him right *or* wrong. In

other

> words, no one can prove that a phoneme /z/ existed in a prestage

of

> the language, and no one can prove that such a phoneme didn't

exist.

> Ultimately, comparison with other extant languages must provide

the

> evidence we need here.

What does the last sentence mean? What is there to compare with? Are
you talking about typological parallels? May we not discover the
jamais-vu?

> > > The only way there can be e-vocalism in the suffix is if it

was

> > > originally stressed -- the laryngeals don't seem to

color /o/.

> > > Also, I wouldn't say the laryngeal here "colors *e to *a",

but

> > > rather the original quality of the vowel -- /a/ -- is

preserved.

> >
> > /H2/ does colour /e/, for in cases of lengthened grade the form

is

> > e:H2 or H2e: (not a:H2, H2a:).
>
> Hmm. What caused the lengthened grade there in the first place?

Many things. But isn't that immaterial?

> > > I don't think that the feminine suffix contained a thematic
> > > vowel. That is, I don't think the vowel of the suffix

was

> > > separate from the laryngeal. I reconstruct a unitary suffix *-

áx

> > > *-éx (in *phonemic* terms; the phonetic realization would

have

> > > remained [-áx], I think).
> >
> > That is wrong. The nom.-acc. neuter plural is a strong case and

so

> > cannot have an underlying vowel; that excludes *-eH2 leaving

only *-

> > H2.
>
> I don't think the nom.-acc. neuter plural fits into the strong-
> case/weak-case dichotomy. It seems that the suffix was added

after

> those alternations had been fixed.

So, as usual, you are excusing the case at hand from following
normal practice.

> > > To me, the "thematic feminine" declension seems to
> > > have actually been an *athematic* one. The problem with Jens'
> > > theory is that it is typologically unrealistic. Absent

any

> > > conditioning factor(s), there is no reason why a language

would

> > > treat stem-final vowels somehow differently from all

other

> > > vowels. Thus, I do not think that Jens' system is simpler

than

> > > mine.
> >
> > It is plainly observable that there is a major break in the

words

> > at that point.
>
> Define "major break", please.

The IE vocalism comes in sections: There are e,a,o,e:,a:,o: in
roots, there is only e in suffixes, and there are e,a,o,i,u in
endings. Accent assignment is lexically given in the stem, i.e. the
word minus its inflectional endings, but accent movement is caused
by the endings. There most certainly is a break before the endings.

> > The flexives have a more varied vocalism than the stem-

forming

> > suffixes, so *something* has been going [on] at this

particular

> > morpheme boundary.
>
> Since I do not relate the "thematic feminine" with the "thematic
> masculine", I do not see how what you say above necessarily

stands.

The, as usual, you are excusing the case at hand from following
normal practice. That is a distinct weakness.

> I consider the o-suffix of the "thematic masculine" and the a:-

suffix

> of the "thematic feminine" to *be* stem-forming suffixes.

Well, so they are, some stems are formed from other stems - there
are layers in this.

Jens