Re: [tied] Romanian Verb Endings and Substratum influence (repost)

From: Miguel Carrasquer
Message: 38316
Date: 2005-06-03

On Thu, 02 Jun 2005 23:29:15 +0000, alexandru_mg3
<alexandru_mg3@...> wrote:

>But ok, Exception or not Miguel needs now to explain us...and to
>demonstrate that this supposed *accu was really a Common Latin
>Form....Because showing only that a=a or i=i is not sufficient in
>So in this case Miguel, you need to accomplish some steps in order
>to really demonstrate that this *accu ...was a Common Latin Form.
>To do this:
>1. you can find and attested Latin form (some inscriptions, texts
>etc...maybe a Catalan or at least a Dacian "verus" that passed from
>Pompei...) => but if you cannot find one ok....let's go further.

As the asteisk indicates, *accu is not attested in Latin.

>2. You need to identify the title word or the root word in Latin of
>this *accu (if possible a PIE also your demonstration will be 100%
>sure) => so you will demonstrate first that this really could be a
>Latin word. Latin being a well attested Language is mandatory to can
>accomplish this step...

*accu is simply a syncopated form of <atque eccum>, widely

>3. Next after the root was identified you need to present how this
>*accu was derived from this root in a credible way with a credible
>derived meaning.
>4. Next you need to apply first the OLD Latin and next the Catalan
>Phonetic rules to can show us that this derivation was possible in
>Catalan to happen...
>5. Next you need to do the same thing for Romanian (and for any
>other Latin Idiom where this *accu appeared...)
>HELPING NOTE: in Romanian there is no Latin. e that passed to a...
>(It could be some recent lost of ea > a but we will easy find traces
>of the previous ea in Dialects in that case)
>Finally I'm really confident that for Miguel (that is a
>very "serious" linguist in opposition with other "igonrants"
>that "populate" this forum) will be an easy job to make this
>demonstration ...especially because I'm almost sure that before to
>make me an "ignorant" he have had previously checked any detail in
>the demonstration he needs now only to write his
>demonstration here......

The distribution is roughly: *accu- in Iberia, Italy and the
Balkans, ecce- in Northern Gaul, and an intermediate zone
(Occitan, Rhaetic), where both *accu- and ecce- occur. The
only exception is ecce-hoc, which occurs rarely, but more
widely. The forms are:

Fr. icist, cist, cest > ce
Occ. cest

Occ. aquest
Cat. aquest
OSpa. aqueste
PPor. aqueste
Ita. questo, chistu
Rhae. kis^t
Rom. acest
Sard. cussu

OFr. icil, cil, cel
Occ. cel
Rhae. c^el

Occ. aquell
Cat. aquell
Spa. aquel
Por. aquele
Ita. quello
Rhae. kwel, kel
Rom. acel, cel
Sard. cuDDu

Cat. aqueix
OSpa. aquese
OPor. aquisso

Fr. ço > ce
Occ. ço
Cat. ço
Ita. ciò

Occ. aquò, acò, ac

The only Romance language without any trace of *accu- is

Miguel Carrasquer Vidal