Re: [tied] Re: NEuropean IE for apple

From: Petusek
Message: 38065
Date: 2005-05-25

Petusek wrote:

>This is a controversial matter. The term
"Vallachian" or better
>"Vlachian") is of unsure origin.

George wrote:
>Why? AFAIK, there is enough Czech and Polish
bibliography
>pertaining to (chiefly) Transylvanian Romanian migrations
to
>Moravia and Southern Poland approx. in the 15th-17th
centuries.
>(In the 19th c., some Romanians payed visits to some
Vala$ske
>communities in Moravia, and they reported that those
local
>people still had some terms of Romanian origin.)
It's considered controversial, because some scholars claim the Vlachian people are of Romanian origin, others (as well as me) think they were visited by Romanian herdsmen and given the knowledge of gelding etc. There are also opinions that the people came from Ukraine, which is by no means accepted.
 
It's a bit controversial, because the exact way the expression appeared as a name of the Moravian region is unsure.
 
Petusek:
>Valach means generally a "herdsman" in Slavic languages,
George:
>Because of Romanian shepherds who migrated thither
either
>from Transylvania (i.e. the Hungarian kingdom) or
from
>among the Aromanians (Macedonian Romanians). One of
>their
words "brenze" (actually brânza) is protected by
>EU copyright laws for
the benefit of... Slovaks (while
>Romanians and Aromanians have kept
sleeping :-)).
Oh yes! :-) That's because of their national food "halus^ky s bryndzu:" (It's bryndza in Slovak, although I've also heard some people from Kos^ice pronounce it [brimza], which must be a dissimilative change in the East.) It's quite popular in Moravia, especially in Valas^sko. :-)

Petusek:
>but also a castrated horse, a gelding, since Valachs
>were
thought to be the first people to geld.
George:
This meaning is also covered by the German word
<Wallach>.
 
Of course. I should have mentioned it.

>(Germ. *walch- >
George:
>Walch- (cf. Walchensee), Wlach-, Walach-, but also
Bloch(er), Walser,
>Walliser and of course Welsch-. All referring to
Italians, French and
>Rheto-Romans. Only the German-speaking population of
Transylvania used
>Walch-/Wlach-/Bloch for the Romanian population living
there and the
>neighboring Romanian population of Moldova and
Walachia.
Oh, great! Thank you for the information!

Me:
>Slav. *Volch-, Czech Vlach, Russ. Voloch, Rom. Valach)
[Holub-Lyer]
George:
>Hungarian: oláh "Vlakh/Romanian," olasz "Italian."
George, do you think the term "Olaz^sky' Rom" (as opposed to the ordinary "Ro'm", speaking the Slovak dialect of Romany), which is the self-denomination of the second largest Romany group in the Czech Republic may be related?

Me:
> Traces of foreign origin can bee seen in several lexical items,
such
>as <ogar> "a boy". All PS /g/ > /h/ in Czech, so it's clear
that
>"ogar" must be a loan.
George:
>In Romanian, ogar "(grey)hound;"  cf. Serbian ogar,
Hungarian agár
>['Oga:r]

Yes, so what could be the origin of that particular word? Some dictionaries mention the Modern Greek term <ago'rion> or even the Turkish word <ogul>. Or is it possible to etymologize the expression on the basis of IE?