Re: [tied] Re: The Vlach Connection

From: george knysh
Message: 37640
Date: 2005-05-05

--- tolgs001 <st-george@...> wrote:

> >GK: In effect all we have here are statements
> >made in ca. 1200 and ca. 1275. The less said about
> >"lost internal royal sources" the better. The
> >Hungarian royals had very close contacts with their
> >Rus' counterparts in the 12th and 13th centuries
> (both
> >friendly and hostile). I for one am fairly certain
> >that the Anonymous' account of "the siege of Kyiv"
> by
> >the Arpadians is borrowed from a misunderstood
> passage
> >in the Kyivan Chronicle (repeated in the Suzdalian
> >Chronicle) s.a. 898, which itself is only a brief
> >commentary about the name of a Kyivan hill...
> But what event in the anonymous P (P�sa?) notary's
> account as well as in the second chronicler's
> account
> (Simon of K�za) could be put in connection with that
> siege?

******GK: I don't remember Keza. But I do remember the
Anonymous account. As a matter of fact there was NO
such "siege of Kyiv. Pure creative invention, as the
"sieges" in Galicia BTW. For Kyiv, Anonymous relied on
a brief statement that the Arpad Magyars made camp
near Kyiv during their westward trek. But this was
merely an attempt by the Kyivan chronicler to explain
the name of the "Ugrian Hill" south of Kyiv (already
so called, we know, even before that trek, and
currently known as "Askold's Tomb"...)*****

For both chronicles deal with scores of such
> belligerent events all over Hungary, the Balkans as
> well as central Europe (esp. South Germany, where
> some
> of the 1st echelon Hung. chieftains were slain).

*****GK: Some of these reflected real events, others
perhaps not. The Anonymous is in many ways a kind of
novel, always entertaining, not always accurate.*****
> AFA the anonymous notary's story is concerned, the
> political statehood of Vlachs is that under a duke
> Gelou in Transylvania proper, i.e. East of the
> western mountains (already mentioned here today) and
> the dense forests over there (the "Igfon forest").
> The
> story of the defeat of Gelou's weak army doesn't
> look
> like that of a Kyivan siege.

*****GK: My point was that the Suzdalian mention of
the Arpadians attacking Vlachs and Slavs (not just
Slavs as in the Kyivan chronicle) after crossing the
Carpathians, was all that Anonymous needed to get his
creative juices flowing. By 1200 there were enough
organized Vlachs close by to "help" with the imagined
conflict of the late 890's...*****

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