--- In
cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@...> wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 20:20:41 +0000, etherman23
> <etherman23@...> wrote:
>
> If I understand you correcly, you're suggesting that if we
> have full grade *a:, *e:, *o:, their zero grades would be
> *a, *e, *o, and that would remove the need for laryngeals.
It may be better to call them a reduced grade. The zero-grade I think
would be schwa. It's only in Greek that the schwa was replaced with
full grade forms.
> While I believe something of the kind did take place in
> (pre-)PIE (long vowels were shortened in unstressed
> position), I don't think it affects the reconstruction of
> laryngeals at all.
Greek is the only language with a triple representation of schwa.
That means we rely heavily on Greek for reconstructions like CHC. But
if there's another explanation for the triple representation then a
major support for the laryngeal theory is gone. IMO.
> You're forgetting that laryngeals do not only occur in the
> combination *VH. We also have combinations like *HV and
True, but if we accept /a e o/ as part of PIE then *HV doesn't need
the *H except in those positions where Anatolian or I-Ir. provide
evidence for them (note that I see no reason why all roots must be
reconstructed with an initial consonant).
> *CHC
It's only Greek that would require distinctions in H here and if that
can be explained without laryngeals then they largely become
superfluous.
> and *HC-. Words like *h2ner- "man", *h3nobh- "navel",
> to name just two, require a laryngeal which has nothing to
> do with a long vowel.
I'll grant that support is a bit stronger here. We have testimony
from Greek and Armenian for three coefficients shall we say. In
Hittite we also have no words beginning with /r/. There are also some
languages which have initial vowels that don't appear in other
languages. Yet I can't help but wonder if these vowels were
unstressed and so were lost in some languages, reduced to /a/ in
others, but retained in Greek and Armenian.
Incidentally, I just learned today that H2 and H3 are supposed to be
reflected differently in Hittite and Lycian. I need to look into it
further but if it pans out I'll have to accept the existence of two
laryngeals.