Re: [tied] Re: Indo-European /a/

On Sat, 09 Apr 2005 21:29:32 +0000, etherman23
<etherman23@...> wrote:

>--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@...> wrote:
>> On Sat, 09 Apr 2005 02:48:14 +0000, etherman23
>> <etherman23@...> wrote:
>> Hitt. mehur "time" is related to Lat. ma:turus "ripe",
>> ma:nus "good", ma:ne "early", IEW 2. *ma:- (= *meh2-) "gut,
>> zu rechter Zeit". The Hitt. word shows long grade of the
>> vowel *me:h2-
>
>Wouldn't these be cognate with Httite ma:i "ripen"?

I don't have a Hitt. etymological dictionary at hand, but
probably yes.

>Wouldn't mehur be cognate with Goth me:l "time" and Lat. me:tior?

*eh1 would not have given Hitt. -eh-.

>> >Why wouldn't e:H2 develope into a: in Hittite?
>>
>> Long and originally long vowels (*e: and *o) are not
>> coloured by laryngeals.
>
>So are you assuming an original PIE system of /e e: o o:/?

I'm assuming /e e: o(:)/ (with marginal /i u a(:)/).

In any case, we can avoid complicating things as I did
above, by simply saying that laryngeals do not colour long
vowels (essentially *e:), nor *o.

>> >The theory was invented to explain that.
>> >Since H1 isn't preserved in
>> >Anatolian I wonder where the actual evidence is for it.
>>
>> Yes, it was invented to explain that, and does so very well.
>> In what way is that not evidence?
>
>It's pretty weak. The ablaut would be evidence for any theory
>designed to explain abluat.

But the only theory known to explain all the facts is de
Saussure's.

>> >> Important support also comes from the Greek three-way
>> >> representation of vocalized laryngeals, with *h1 > *&1 >
>> >> /e/.
>> >
>> >Could Greek have replaced the zero-grade with the full grade?
>>
>> The full grades of *eh1, *eh2 and *eh3 are e:, a: and o:,
>> not e, a, o.
>
>I realize that. I meant that e, a, and o are the full grades of e:,
>a:, and o:.

We find e:, a: and o: where we would expect full grade (e.g.
present ti-the:-mi), and we find Greek e, a, o (I-I /i/,
other /a/) wherer we would expect to see zero grade (e.g.
past pass. ptc. thetos).

>> >> Greek also shows a different development of *i/u + *h1/2/3,
>> >> having:
>> >>
>> >> *ih1 > i: *uh1 > u:
>> >> *ih2 > ya: *uh2 > wa:
>> >> *ih3 > yo: *uh3 > wo:
>> >>
>> >
>> >What are the Hittite cognates to support this (not that I'm saying
>> >they don't exist, I just like to know what they are)?
>>
>> Why only Hittite?
>
>Any Anatolian would do. I'm looking for something else that would
>show a laryngeal there. Without direct confirmation from a laryngeal
>we have a situation where other explanations might exist.

Is your name Thomas?

As I think Kortlandt says somewhere, there is considerably
more evidence for the laryngeals in Greek than there is in
Hittite.

=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
mcv@...