Re: Danish enigma

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...>
wrote:

>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "aquila_grande"

<aquila_grande@...>

> wrote:
> >
> > I cannot answar defititly about Danish, but can give some
> explantion
> > about the use in Norwegian that have the same deponens.
> >
> > In Norwgian, adding an -s to an active present prticiple to give

a

> > passive or deponens give a result that is difficult to

pronounce.

> > Therefor the form *lykts is seldome used.
> >
> > The officially corect form used is lykkes, that is equal to
> > infinitive/present. In dayly speach you can also hear lyktes, a
> form
> > I prefere.
> >
> > So- in Norwegian these deponense forms, I think, is a

consequence

> of
> > the need to make the forms easier to prononce.

Thank you, Aquila. I believe you would rephrase 'lykkes' in perfect
to something like "Jeg har vaeret heldig at ..."

>
>
> Same thing in Danish. Swedish (because they have an Academy?) is

much

> more well-ordered than Danish (and there Norwegian bokmål). The
> Swedish supine (the form used in compound tense,
> -it in strong verbs, identical to the n.sg form of the past
> participle in weak verbs), I read somewhere, is a originally a
> dialectal variant of the n.sg. form of the past participle in -et.
> Actually the whole set-up of the passive in Swedish looks like it

was

> the result of languagage planning and Academy intervention, but I
> have no actual evidence of that. Of the passive forms in spoken
> Danish only the infinitive is used, with modal verbs: 'kan
> læses' "can be read"; the present is used for the 'institutionally
> habitual'(?) 'porten lukkes kl. 8' "the gate is closed at 8

o'clock

> (every day)" contrasting with 'porten bliver lukket kl. 8' "the

gate

> is (will be) closed at 8 (today)". That means that the past

passive

> should be used for the 'past habitual', and how often does one

need

> that ('porten lukkedes kl. 8' "the gate was closed (every day) at
> 8")?
>
> With deponent verbs like 'lykkes' "succeed" (constructed as if

with a

> dative 'det lykkedes mig at ...' "I succeeded in ...") the problem

is

> that we have no passive supine or ppp, therefore we try to use the
> passive past, which we are also becoming unsure in the use of,

since

> it's used so little, therefore 'det er lykkedes mig' "I have
> succeeded in...". I hear people say 'det kan lykkedes', apparently
> since they can't do the analysis into -ede + -s (it took me long

time

> when I was a kid to figure out that 'syntes' was the past
> of 'synes' "think, be of the opinion".
>
> Another trouble deponent verb: 'findes' "exist"
> Swedish: finnas, finns, fanns, har funnits
> Danish: findes, findes, fandtes, har erh, hm, what?!
> The periphrastic tenses are simply avoided in Danish.
>
> I must confess to being jealous of the Swedes for having such a
> logical grammar, at least on this point.

> Torsten

Thanks, Torsten
Interesting that I as a language user might be the product of
volapük bricolage by the members of the Swedish Academy back in the
1700's.
If so, this bricolage has been a success, since -s passive voice in
all verb forms of active verbs and deponentia is something natural
to Swedish speakers.
Generally the passive voice is felt more formal than expressions
using the active, though. English is most tolerant to passive
constructions of all languages, I think.

Am I right to think that you analyse 'lykkedes' in the
expression "det er ikke 'lykkedes' Lykketoft at ..." as some sort of
quotation of a shortened phrase containing the preterite of the verb?
Something like: "It is not '(sth) managed' for Lykketoft to ..."

If so, this might open new ways of Sprachgefuehl when reconstructing
language evolutions. Take for instance: secutus sum, locuta sum.
They were perhaps once felt like: "I am a (male) having followed",
"I am a (female) having spoken".

Deponens is not a verb having 'laid off' its passive meaning but is
really a middle form preceding passives of active verbs in
evolution.
So Latin periphrastic perfect of deponentia is perhaps not a mere
calque of passives of active verbs.

This is perhaps something to consider? If so ...
Til 'lykke'
Lars