From: mkapovic@...
Message: 35581
Date: 2004-12-22
>I am not so sure on the details or the exact chronology but it is sure
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, mkapovic@... wrote:
>
>> g wrote:
>
>>> NB: the Romanian spoken south of the Danube down to South of
>>> Serbia and as far in the West as Croatia (amazingly until today
>>> in some spots - of which one knows only because people from there
>>> went to Romania a couple of years ago to participate in
>>> appropriate festivals and cultural encounters)
>>
>> We've already been over this on the list. The so-called
>> IstroRomanians in Istra in Croatia are very well known and there
>> is a very good grammar and dictionary of it etc. If somebody
>> doesn't know of them, that can be attributed only to ignorance
>> or lack of interest...
>
> Of course, George hinted what Romanians in Romania know about
> Istro-Romanians (that is essentially zero): there is really no
> widespread conscience about South-Danubian dialectal speakers
> of Romanian. Specialists are perfectly aware, but they form an
> obvious minority. :-)
>
>>> belongs to the same dialect as Romanian of Romania and Moldova
>>> and Transcarpathia and Northern Bulgaria, namely the
>>> "Dacoromanian" dialect. The other sorts of Romanian, spoken in
>>> the Epirus, Thessalia, Macedonia as well as in Istria (almost
>>> extinct) and some spots in Dalmatia (with the native-speakers
>>> barely able to utter something in that dialect, whereas their
>>> 1st perfect language is Croatian),
>>
>> No such thing. The only Romanians in Croatia are those already
>> mentioned in Istra.
>
> If "no such thing" is intended to label "spots in Dalmatia", I
> would tend to agree: while Istro-Romanians should have made it
> to their present location along some continuous path, there is
> no historical decisive proof or sign of them in Dalmatia. That
> obviously holds even stronger for present day situation.
>
>> They came to Istra rather recently (a couple of centuries ago)
>> from the island of Krk and to Krk they came from the region Lika
>> in Croatia and to Lika from the inner Balkans...
>
> On that assertion there could be some debate. Irineo della Croce
> mentions an undoubtedly (Istro-)Romanian speaking population in
> "Historia del Trieste" (1698): that makes certain at least three
> centuries, but indications for their existence in the area are to
> be found even prior to that date (first document about these "Cici"
> in Trieste area is dated 1490). There is to be noticed that IR
> dialect (including even those words quoted by della Croce) exhibits
> some features (the most important: rhotacism of intervocalic /n/)
> pointing towards a deep link with W Daco-Romanian subdialects in
> Banat & Crisana. Romanian scholars tend to agree that IR splitted
> from DR some centuries after Aromanian & Megleno-Romanian, around
> 13th/14th century. That leaves of course plenty of time for their
> westward journey.