Re: [tied] Re: -st

On 04-11-05 14:55, tgpedersen wrote:

> As Rob quoted
> "
> [PIE] did not have preverbs or pre- or
> postpositions, only adverbs (which became preverbs, etc., in the
> individual languages)' (Beekes 1995: 167).
> "

PIE had compounds, including lots of compounds with "adpreps" (*kom-,
*h1(e)pi-, *h1en-, *per(i)-, *pro-, *h2anti-, etc.) and various other
particles (*swe-, *n.-, *sm.-) as first elements. It's mostly a matter
of taste whether you regard such morphemes as prefixes or not, so
Beekes's categorical statement is unnecessarily dogmatic. At any rate
branch-specific prefixations did not develop ex nihilo.

> which sets these three words ("branch", "nest" and a (metaphorically)
> four-letter word) apart from the rest of the vocabulary of PIE: and
> they obviously belong to a lower stratum.

There are many similar compounds. It so happens that *ni- 'down(wards)'
is better attested in Indo-Iranian than elsewhere (including such
archaic-looking formations as RV ni:ca: 'downwards' < *ni-h3kW-eh1 and
ni:pa- 'low, deep' < *ni-h2p-o-), but examples involving other adpreps
are easy to find in practically any branch. *ni-sd-o- certainly isn't
isolated as a type of morphological structure.

> They could therefore in
> principle be taken from a previous language, say one in which
> poaching eggs was a subject. Nothing forces a language to develop a
> special word for the homes of birds (why not 'the sparrow's lair'?)

Still, PIE seems to have had a native word for the thing. By the way,
<ni:d.a-> means not only 'nest' but also 'any place for settling down,
resting-place, abode' (as in Armenian), just as could be expected,
given its etymology. 'Lair' comes very close to the meaning of 'nest',
but because birds "sit down" rather than "lay down" in their homes, the
root is *sed-, not *legH-.

> Which all takes the attention away from the -st suffix, which might
> and might not be IE.
> Kuhn points out that many German place names in -stein might have
> evolved from corresponding names in -st, as follows: The -st suffix
> was used both of the place and an in habitant of it, from dat. pl.
> expressions such as 'bei den X-sten' came a misrepresentation of the
> placename as 'X-sten' which was again construed as Low German 'X-
> steen' "X-stone", 'translated' into High German as 'X-stein'.
> Classical example: 'bi den Holtseten' (cf Gallehus
> horn: 'holtijaz') "by the forest-dwellers" -> 'bi den Holsten' -
>
>>'Holsteen' -> 'Holstein'. I should point out there are -st names in
>
> Denmark too: Andst, Seest.
>
> Which might be how Segestes got his name; there is a river Sieg in
> Westfalia.
>
> What's the etymology of the Greek name Orestes?

From <oros, oreos> 'hill, mountain': *ores-ta:- 'highlander', cf.
Ores-bios 'living in the mountains', a character killed by Hector.

> And BTW: My first language is full of words that don't have a good IE
> etymology, that's why the subject interests me. I am of course aware
> that other people of other, more purely IE linguistic persuasions
> will find my interests obscure. That's life.

Piotr