[tied] Re: Wuz

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Verhoft" <fa478077@...>
wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: tgpedersen
> Subject: [tied] Re: Wuz
>
> <<<French <gueux> > (loan) Dutch <geus> is obvious, I think, given

the

> shared meaning 'beggar'.<<<
>
> No doubt. But it was (and still is) the line *wos->gueux>geus i

have probs

> with (less probs with Du guit > Fr gueux > Du geus; no problems

with Fr.

> gueux > Du geus).


>As for French, the oldest attestation for gueux (or
> related forms gueuse) is as late as the _XVIth_ century. How do you

account

> for that, if you want to connect 'gueux' to *wos?

By accepting Kuhn's idea that words that belong to the everyday or
lower semantic sphere and are attested late may belong to a substrate
language, because they, being part of the language of the subjugated
people are considered inferior.

>Furthermore, how would you
> explain the sound represented by Fr. <eu> in connection with Gmc.

*o, while

> Du <ui> is easily mixed up with <eu>, at least by modern

francophones.

By assuming that *was-, *wos- was not a Germanic root but belonged to
a substrate that was common to the present Germanic-speaking and
French-speaking areas, and that *wos- therefore was loaned into
French early enough that it was subject to the rules /o/ > /ö/, cf.
Latin <coda> > French <queue>.

> > According to P. Giraud gueux is a doublet of queux, "cuisinier".
>
> <<<Hm. And what exactly does he mean by 'doublet'?<<<
>
> In the case gueux-gueuse/queux: both are related to VLat. *coxus,

coxa,

> past. part. of cocere, Cl.Lat. coquere, _dixit Giraud_. He sees in

gueuse a

> Norm.-Pic. variant of cueux, cuese.

"cook" > "beggar"? A-hem.

> <<<What does Verdam have to say about <guit>?<<<
>
> Not very much.
> * Verdam: "GUITE (guit, guut), znw. m. Guit. Zie Franck op guit.
> Via 'guut' i arrived at:
> * Verdam: "GOKEN, zw. ww. trans. Van gooc, dus slechts middellijk

met

> gokelen verwant. Het is daarvan niet het stamwoord, gelijk het in

Vrouw. e.

> M. Gloss. en bij De Jager, Freq. wordt voorgesteld. Voor den gek

houden,

> bedriegen, om den tuin leiden, bij den neus nemen. Vgl. guten, d. i.
> spotten, smalen, smaden, van guut (guit), dat een synon. van gooc

is.

>
> * Van Dale: gives a series of cognates in LG, Fri, ON, ModNorw.,

all meaning

> something as talking nonsense, mocking etc.
> and ends with "vermoedelijk klanknabootsend", in which he partially

follows

> Vercoullie.
> * Vercoullie goes a step further, and relates 'guit' with German

Kauz, the

> bird, stating that the old Du plural 'guits' is a wrong

interpration of

> guit+s, (see: Kauz /kauts/). He ends with (paraphrased): "Guits" >

Fra.

> gueux, is actually a singular form.
>

That's interesting: a suffix alternation -k-/-t- in a non-IE word.
I've seen that before.

http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/kt.html

Torsten