Re: [tied] Water, pre/postpositions, somewhat OT

On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 08:50:17 +0000, tgpedersen
<tgpedersen@...> wrote:

>--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@...> wrote:
>> On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 11:55:55 +0000, tgpedersen
>> <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
>>
>> >Löpelmann:
>> >ets^e "house"
>> >
>> >because of the compounds
>> >ets^alondo
>> >ets^alain
>> >ets^alte
>> >he posits an original root
>> >*ets^al-
>> >variants
>> >*ets^ar-/*ets^er-
>>
>> etxalte is a local variant of etxalde "village house, own
>> house" from etxe + alde "side, near". I can't find
>> <etxalain> in Azkue, but a suffix *-ain does not exist.
>
>Sorry, it was <ets^alarr>

That's a proper name (placename, I think). Etxa- + -larr.

>> Lapurdian etxalondo means the same as etxalde, and is
>> clearly composed of etxe + ondo "side, near", which should
>> have given *etxaondo. Perhaps this was transformed to
>> etxalondo by analogy of <etxalde>.
>
>Perhaps -> In any case ?

In any case etxe cannot come from etxal-

>>In any case, there is
>> ansolutely no reason to posit an original root
>> *etxal-/*etxar-, and no possible way that such a root could
>> have developed into general Basque <etxe> (combining form of
>> course <etxa->).
>>
>> Now a pre-Basque word *(t)egi "house", combining form
>> *(t)eg-, when combined with the diminutive suffix -xe would
>> have given *(t)eg-xe > etxe regularly.
>
>Trask says all palatalising suffixes are recent. <Etxe> isn't.

All palatalized suffixes are probably derived from earlier
non-palatalized suffixes. More generally, all palatalzed
segments are derived from earlier non-palatalized segments.
Sometimes we don't know what the original segment was, as in
the case of -xe (*-se or *-ze), although it was probably -se
(a form etse exists).

>What seems odd to me is that <etxe>, the supposed direct descendant
>of the Celtic word means "house", while <tegi>, the reconstituted
>combining form somehow has reverted to the original IE sense
>of "roof". Have you also discovered how that happened?

It doesn't mean "roof". Azkue gives tegi as:
1. (AN-b, B-a-gald-l-m-o-tx, L-ain, S), paraje cerrado y por
lo general cubierto, en el que se cobija el ganado ó se
guarda alguna cosa = Vale tanto como almacén, depósito y
también cuadra. 2. (B-g-i-m) muchedumbre. porción.

Translation: "closed and generally covered place, where
cattele is kept or stuff is stored = Equivalent to
storehouse, depot and also stable/stall".

The erroneous meaning "roof" comes from Azkue's French
translation (Azkue's dictionary is Basque-> Spanish/French),
which is:

"Toit, lieu fermé et généralement recouvert, où l'on abrite
le bétail et où l'on garde quelque chose [...] Ce mot
équivaut à magasin, dépôt et aussi écurie".

In other words, <tegi> doesn't mean "roof", but a <tegi> is
called a <toit> in French.


=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
mcv@...