Re: Fibulas Almgren group VI

From: tgpedersen
Message: 32903
Date: 2004-05-24

--- In, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:
> --- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
> As I read Snorri, Asgard would be placed immediately
> on the eastern
> bank of the Don.
> *****GK: Snorri says that the Vanir are "on" the Don,
> but that the Aesir are "east" of the Don. I prefer my
> interpretation to yours, but it doesn't really matter
> as to the key issue, which is, that as a matter of
> fact, there were never any "Vanir" or "Aesir" either
> "on" or east" of the Don. This is a fantastic 13th c.
> concoction which has no basis in either archaeology or
> historical documentation.

Yes, you keep saying that.

>You have not produced a
> single persuasive argument to back up Snorri's
> tale.*****
I note that you are not persuaded.
> *****GK: They could have been brought north by
> warriors who fought on the Danube, as war booty.

Weapons as war booty? The Germani didn't do that. They sacrificed
them in the nearest bog.

> could have been taken there by Sarmatian associates of
> the locals.

By "associates" I assume you mean that they had become so by cell
phone, since Sarmatians were not present in Denmark?

>There are any number of other
> explanations. One thing these bog swords do not even
> begin to prove is the "Odin migration" story. This
> "big event" would have left plenty of traces, not just
> a few bog swords.******

Like the Huns did? For starters, there are signs that the first
weapons in Vimose, in the first cent. BCE are associated with the
West Germanic areas. Later deposits in Vimose and elsewhere, at the
end of the second century CE, are associted with an invasion from the
east. The Danes arriving?

> > >
> > > >When a
> > > > people migrates it leaves signs other than just
> > > > fibulae: gravesites with specific inventories,
> > > > settlements (sometimes).
> > >
> > > (Torsten) Mention some Hunnic settlements in
> Europe.
> >
> > GK: The Huns were nomads. You didn't know
> > this?
> >
> > (Torsten) Mention
> > > traits about
> > > Hunnic gravesite that allow us to identify them as
> > > Turkic.
> >
> > GK: The point is that we do have many datable
> > Hunnic gravesites, and a great deal of additional
> > historical information which enables us to identify
> > them as basically Turkic.
> (Torsten)Let me see if I understand you here:
> The Huns were nomads and therefore would leave few
> traces.
> *****GK: The Huns were nomads and therefore would not
> have left many "settlements"*****
> (Torsten) Sarmatians would have left many traces
> because they were not nomads?
> *****GK: Sarmatians left no "settlements" either. But
> both Huns and Sarmatians left gravesites.
> Capish?******
And the new inhumation graves in the Przeworsk culture that are
associated with its suddenly becoming heterogenous, were "vaguely
Sarmatian", I believe you said?

> >We have no "Odin people"
> > gravesites, and no reliable historical information
> > confirming Snorri's fanciful stories about Aesir and
> > Vanir.******
> (TOrsten)It seems 'reliable' is the operative word
> here.
> *****GK: It is a good word.*****
> > >

And in the final analysis subjective.

> *****GK: I'll make it simpler for you. The Almgren
> fibulae cannot be used to prove that an "Odin people"
> migrated from east of the Don into Central Europe,
> because these fibulae are not ethnically specific
> objects. They were originally manufactured in Olbia,
> Panticapaeum etc.. for "the barbarian market", and
> they found their way into many different ethnic
> hinterlands, Sarmatian, Germanic, Thracian, Baltic,
> Slavic. None of the actually existing gravesites where
> these fibulae were discovered can be associated with a
> group that would fit the characteristics of "the Odin
> people".******

Interpretation. Since Snorri is not reliable (which he isn't because
the story he tells is not believable, which it isn't because Snorri
is not reliable) there exists no historical account of a migration
from the North Pontic area into Northern Europe, and therefore the
dispersal of fibulas of the same type along that route must be
necessity have some other cause.