The palatal sham :) (Re: [tied] Re: Albanian (1))

From: tgpedersen
Message: 30989
Date: 2004-02-12

--- In, Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@...> wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 12:06:38 +0000, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...>
> wrote:
> >So much for that. I'd like to discuss the idea that supposed PIE
> >plain velars occur only in loans. So, fire away, list some
> >of what you believe to be incontrovertible examples of plain
> >and I'll check with Møller and Bomhard.
> *-(i)ko- "diminutive suffix".
> >I find them, you lose; I don't find them, I lose. OK?
> You lose. If only because Møller and Bomhard don't list suffixes.
> Anyway, this is silly. I can find any vowel or consonant occurring
in a
> PIE root in Möller and/or Bomhard. And if I don't find anything
> enough, I can try Illich-Svitych, Dolgopolskij, Gamqrelidze/Ivanov,
> Starostin, Greenberg, or even Ruhlen and Manansala, until I find
it. That
> doesn't mean anything.

Your parody of what I'm proposing is silly alright. I'll be checking
for matching roots containing 'plain velars' in Møller and Bomhard,
not "vowels or consonants".

You said (something like):

"The existence of reconstructed PIE *kap- "take" proves that PIE had
plain velars"

Bomhard 242:
PN *k{h][a|&]p[h]- "to take, to seize; hand"
PIE *k{h]ap[h]- "to take, to seize"
PAA *k[h][a|&]p[h]- "TO TAKE, TO SEIZE; HAND"
PFU *kappe- "to take, to seize, to grasp"
*käppä- "hand, paw"
PD *kapp- "to touch, to feel"
PA *kap- "to grasp, to seize"

In the face of that, one might propose one of two mutually exclusive

1) PIE *kap- is a loanword from some other language
2) PIE *kap- is not loaned from anywhere

I wonder which choice of alternative has the greatest chance of
making you look silly.