Re: [tied] Late Proto Albanian *3 /dz/ NOT QUITE Early Proto Roman

From: Piotr Gasiorowski
Message: 30754
Date: 2004-02-06

06-02-04 00:25, alexandru_mg3 wrote:

> Hello Piotr,
> First of all, please don't stop my thread. Will be not correct.
> Of course, what I said is only an assumption. I have to check it
> further.
> Maybe is a wrong assumption (like 1000 others, that we read each
> day). If so, this assumption will fail in a contradiction earlier or
> later.
> In any case I don't like at all pseudo-science. In computer field
> a single bug is sufficient for a program of 100000 lines in order not
> to work correctly. But I know also that any model is good until the
> first contradiction will appear.
>
> So please don't stop my thread at this moment because the
> contradiction of this assumption is not obvious at all, so your
> action will not be a correct one...

I didn't intend to kill the thread by applying moderation!

> Now regarding my assumption:
> I said only that based on my assumption the Romanization of
> Albanians (in fact more exactly ONLY /di/ reflexes) took place after
> 3->D and 3^->3, and the Romanization of Romanian, more exactly ONLY
> regarding the reflexes of the same /di/ took place earlier when 3 was
> still 3. This is all I said and nothing more.
>
> Now regarding the timeframes, I well understand you doubts
> regarding the periodization of C,D,E and the periodization of Slavic
> Loans regarding the Latin Loans. Of course you have right. I have the
> same doubts as you, but I only indicate "C and D periods" in my
> previous message only to point out the ideea of t-moment for
> Romanization of Romanians and t+1-moment for Romanization of
> Albanians.
> But maybe D is not quite D and maybe C is not quite C or maybe
> ONLY some transformations of these periods have to be shift earlier
> or later. But is earlier to say something about the whole
> periodization until other transformation rules will not be analyzed
> based on my assumption.
>
> So saying :
> "I'd better nip your idea in the bud before this thread develops
> into a whole school of red herring" is NOT correct from your side.
> My ideea for instance stand up very well (of course in its limits
> that I described above: we have analyzed only /di/ reflexes and thats
> all)...

But since I have demonstrated that Albanian must have taken its Latin
loans very early (during my "Stage C", and well before its end at that),
the fact that your idea might have worked for some limited part of
Albanian phonology doesn't matter. You can ignore the crucial facts that
militate against your dating.

> Also, it could be very well possible that we will find sooner that
> my assumption is wrong (as already happens in other cases when you
> have explained me why di cannot passed to 3i). So at that moment I
> will say that my assumption is wrong, and I will end it.
>
> But really we are not there at that moment. And you know this too.

But we are. A true premise would not lead to a logical contradiction.

Piotr

> Thanks and Best Regards,
> marius alexandru
>
>
> P.S. " Just for the record: _you_ claim that there are "great
> similarities",
> but some of your critics (including Yours Truly) fail to see any
> remarkable similarities beyond such as can be expected in languages
> belonging to the same regional sprachbund."
>
> You are not right here, basically regarding /3/. I followed a t-
> moment and a t+1 moment on the SAME axes INSIDE the SAME System.
> (Regarding the other axes 3^ -> 3, I found also the reflex of 3,
> another 3 regarding its origin, but the same regarding its physical
> manifestation).
> ...also c->T (I could take only a look this evening, I just
> arrived from my office) seems to respect the same rule.
> This ORDER in time that folows the axes of the PIE basic
> sounds...is not a "regional sprachbund" ...but of course we cannot
> conclude anything based on only one transformation.
>
> (now regarding raza, spuza etc.. is hard to say that we don't
> have similarities : they are quite the SAME WORDS HAVING THE SAME
> FORMS, but this is a colateral argument that could be very well ONLY
> the same regional sprachbund if we take it isolated).