Re: [tied] Late Proto Albanian *3 /dz/ NOT QUITE Early Proto Roman

05-02-04 01:10, alexandru_mg3 wrote:

> Hello Piotr,
> I found out why the reflexes of Latin /di/ doesn't exactly fit in
> Romanian and in Albanian,
>
> DESPITE the GREAT similarities that we found.

Just for the record: _you_ claim that there are "great similarities",
but some of your critics (including Yours Truly) fail to see any
remarkable similarities beyond such as can be expected in languages
belonging to the same regional sprachbund.

>
>
> Please take a look on your timeframes [ALBANIAN(1)]
>
> "
> A B C D E
> ------ ----- ---- --- ---
> *k' > *c' > *c > *T > T
> *g' > *3' > *3 > *D > D ~ d
> *k'w > *c'W > *c^ > *c > s
> *kW /+ > *c'W > *c^ > *c > s (the rest as above)
> *g'w > *3'W > *3^ > *3 > z
> *gW /+ > *3'W > *3^ > *3 > z (the rest as above)
>
> " Let's label stage A "pre-Albanian", stage B "Early Proto-Albanian",
> stage C "Late Proto-Albanian" (approximately the time of close
> interaction between Proto-Albanian and Balkan Latin) and stage D "Old
> Albanian" (later than the first Slavic loans in Albanian). Stage E
> represents the Modern Albanian state of affairs."
>
> ....so why the reflexes of Latin /di/ fit but NOT EXACTLY in
> Albanian and in Romanian ?
>
> Because the Romanian Latin Loans were borrowed EARLIER than the
> Albanian Latin Loans. The Romanian loans took place in phase C on
> your timeframe (when g' was 3):
>
> Lat. di -> Rom. 3[i] ( [] -> means optional ) (dies -> dzi)
> where Romanian 3 (later z in Romanian ) is from *3' > *3 > *D
> (Rom. z) (so from *g' - Axe)
>
> The Albanian Latin Loans took place on D-period regarding your
> timeframes (when g' was D and 3^ was 3).
>
> This explains everything :
>
> a) Why Lat. di: -> Alb. di ---> because we are in D-period,
> and we have already passed from 3 to D (on the same PIE *g' axe).
>
> Also this explain why :
>
> Lat. rádia- > *rádja- --> Alb. *rä3- > rreze
>
> where Albanian 3 (later z) is from *3^ > *3 > z (so from *g'w
> axe).
>
> (is 3^ as you said but not exactly at that moment but a little
> bit later as 3).
>
>
> This shows us an obvious thing:
>
> That the Romanization of Albanians started LATER (at least
> the /di/(Main?) Latin wave), than the Romanization of Romanians.

And who were those Albanians Romanised by? The ghosts of Roman
legionaries? Note that Stage D is datable in absolute terms _after_ the
first stages of the Slavic immigration. The oldest layer of Slavic loans
clearly belongs to the final phase of Stage C. Thus, Stage D may have
begun about AD 700 if not later. By that time, there were no Romans in
the Balkans, and the local variety Proto-Balkan Latin had developed into
Common Romanian. Any Latinate words would have entered Old Albanian via
some form of early Romanian or some other Romance dialect (Dalmatian or
some form of Italian, e.g. Venetian). In fact, there _are_ such loans,
but they can be distinguished from the Latin layer (see below).

I'd better nip your idea in the bud before this thread develops into a
whole school of red herring. The Latin loans in Albanian are _certainly_
older than the Slavic ones, since they were affected by some sound
changes no longer active during Stage D or even the final phase of Stage
C. One of those changes is the loss of intervocalic voiced stops. It
regularly affects loans from Latin but not those from Slavic (not even
the earliest of them), which means that the process was no longer
operative by AD 600. The oldest loans from post-Latin Romance, e.g.
monedhë < OVen.(?) moneda (_not_ Lat. mone:ta) show /-D-/ as a lenited
substitute of foreign /-d-/. Slavic and later Romance loans simply show
reinstated /-d-/ without exception. I could offer similar arguments
along the same lines, but this one is already decisive. You just can't
get round it.

Piotr

> This is obvious because the Romanians were fully Romanized (so
> they needed more time to "can finished" this process) and the
> Albanians not. (I knew this as historical fact but here I saw it only
> now)
>
> This also shows that we have to compare regarding the Latin
> Loans, the "Albanian" transformations at the T+1 moment in time (for
> Albanians), with the "Albanian" transformations of the T-moment in
> time (for Romanians) in order to establish if Albanian and Romanian
> Phonetics Systems where ONE AND THE SAME at one moment in the past.
>
> For instance what I found above fit very well my assumption :
> Genetic link between Albanian and Romanians, and explain very well
> the reflexes of Latin /di/ in both Languages.
>
> Please check my explanation too...