[tied] Re: Late Proto Albanian *3 /dz/ = Early Proto Romanian *3 /

From: alexandru_mg3
Message: 30600
Date: 2004-02-03

Hello Alex,
I want to thank you for this presentation.
It shows that the situation of Albanian /di/ is much more complex
that Miguel and Piotr presented here... (related to the stability of
Latin /di/ in Albanian).

Seems that Latin /di/ in Albanian is sometimes stable, sometimes
not, but will be difficult for anybody to integrate your examples.

Also I'm not convinced that Latin /di/ in Romanian is never
stable. We have 'ridica' and 'ridiche' and I'm not convinced that we
don't have there Latin /di/ as Miguel sustained).

I want to ask you if possible to post the examples for :
<< All other words which begin with "di" ( there is
no *di:* in these words) have the actualy Albanian reflex "dj-" >>

Thanks again ,
marius alexandru

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "alex" <alxmoeller@...> wrote:
> Miguel Carrasquer wrote:
> > On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 17:39:54 +0100, Piotr Gasiorowski
> > <piotr.gasiorowski@...> wrote:
> >
> >> Proto-Albanian did palatalise
> >> *tj and *dj (> *c^, 3^, differently from Proto-Romanian), but
> >> tolerated
> >> *di-/*ti- (as well as *die-/*tie-) both in inherited words and in
> >> Latin ones.
> >
> > Does this mean that e > íe (and only later ié/jé)?
> >
> >
> > =======================
> > Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
> > mcv@...
> It seems there is latin "ti" > "s" in Albanian. Miguel remarqued
that the
> "ti" group has been unstable in Romance, this group having
different fonetic
> values and maybe there is something to speculate about.
> Since Piotr sustained that Slavic "c^" is stil represented in
Albanian as
> "s" in the very old loans, it was a contradiction that no
Romance "c^" is
> represented in Albanian trough "s". OK, the "c^" in Rom. "cioarã"
is not of
> Romance origin but it is represented in Albanian as "s".
> I tried to find out some examples of Latin "ti" or "ci" which are
> represented in
> Albanian trough "s". We have as follow:
> palatium > pëllas
> patire > psoj
> servitium > shërbesë
> vitium > ves
> ratione > arsye
> Now, the initial "ti" remained "t" in Albanian as well. It ought to
see that
> I mentioned here just the Latin words where the "ti"-group is
> avoiding the clusters as "Cti".It ought to mention that no Latin
word which
> contains "ki" ( bad or good supposed as etymon for actually Albanian
> words, ) so, no such word presents a reflex in Albanian as "s".
> From all Latin etymons which begins with "di" there is just only
one which
> is supposed to give "z" and this is Latin "Diana" which gave "zânë"
> Albanian (incidentaly the same word is in Rom. as well "zânã" with
the same
> supposed Latin "pedigree"). All other words which begin with "di" (
there is
> no *di:* in these words) have the actualy Albanian reflex "dj-" if
not the
> "i" got lost for having a consonant cluster as in "directu"
> "drejtë".
> The latin intervocalic group "di" shows an "z" in words
as "meridiare" >
> "mërzej", "paradi:su" > "parriz", "radia" > "rreze", "spodium" >
> "o:rdine" > "urdhër";
> In all these words we have a short Latin "i" beside "paradi:su".
Beside the
> word "paradisu", and "o:rdine" all other words are known in
Romanian as well
> they having the same form as Albanian. ("mërzej" is known in
Aromanian only
> and I guess its form is "merizi" or "mãrizi", the rest in DR
being "razã",
> "spuzã", ).
> That appears intersting because it seems here Albanian did not lost
> intervocalic "d". But there are some words where *di:* this time
appears to
> confirme the rule with the lost of intervocalic "d". They are as
> benedi:cere > bëkoj
> maledi:cere > mallkoj
> radi:ce > rrikë
> radi:cula > rrilkë
> Alex