Hello Piotr,
There are a lot of arguments against your opinion here :
( First that you overated the fact that we have a subset of
consonants in other language...but this doesn't have great importance
regarding the arguments below)
1. The numbers of what you named "albanian loans in Romanian" , and
what I named "common inherited words in Albanian and Romanian" is
between 80 - 100. An important number of them are located before the
period of Slavic Loans in Romanian or in Albanian. So we easy arrive
AT LEAST during the Balkan Latin times. As I know from Rosetti the
common-Romanian was somewhere between VII-X century, so at a previous
that moment we can ONLY talk about Balkan Latin and NOT about
Romanian. Also based on Historians like Procopius, Dio Cassius,
Iordanes or the ancient Herodot, Strabon etc... we didn't have
Albanians in the modern sens of the word of that times. So we have to
make reference (you want or you don't want, but this is a logic thing
here, especially when you said : "in pre-romans times" or "during the
close contact with Balkan Latin") to an ancient Balkan Language too :
Dacian, Thracian and/or Illyrian.
2. If you see the number of loans between Albanian and Romanian we
DON'T HAVE AT ALL AN IMPORTANT LIST (and to say that some of them are
lost is not enough). We have in Romanian about 5000 Slavic Words (50
times more) , about 300-400 Hungarian words (about 3-4 times more),
about 400-500 of Turks words (4-5 times more) etc...
So the percentage of "common words" that we share with the
Albanian are at a huge distant IN MINUS regarding other loans in
Romanian.
This is a clear evidence that the contact of the 2 languages
wasn't as long as the contact that we have with the Slavic peoples
(1400 years), with Hungarians (1000 years) or with Turks (600 years).
Also part of this contact easily arrive in the Balkan Latin times,
with another important part during the first wave of Slavic loans.
3. Such a small number of "common words" (or "loans" as you named
them) CANNOT JUSTIFY AT ALL, BY USING ONLY THE VICINITY ARGUMENT, THE
GREAT SIMILARITIES that we saw in the 2 Phonetical Systems : Albanian
and Romanian. (and I spoke about similarities IN A CONTEXT where we
have ONLY 100 common words)
As you saw the similarities between the 2 phonetics systems
could beat also the Italian that is the closest Romance Language to
Romanian. By contrary the similarities with Slavic languages,
Hungarian or Turkish (despite the huge greater number of loanwords
that we share with these neighbor languages) are less important than
the similarities that we have with Albanian.
This is the STRONGEST ARGUMENT FOR A GENETIC LINK (a common
ancient Balkan Language) and NOT FOR THE VICINITY (LOANS) THEORY.
OF COURSE SIMILARITIES ARE NOT ENOUGH TO PROOVE THE EXISTANCE OF
A THE GENETIC LINK ...BUT THE LOANS THEORY NEED ALSO SOME ADDITIONAL
ARGUMENTS TO BE CREDIBLE IN THIS EQUATION, BECAUSE YOU HAVE NOT A LOT.
At the end we can easily find the final answer to this question
(Of course you can do it N times easier than I could, because I'm not
a specialist in this field) : to reconstruct the Albanian Phonetic
System in the Latin Times (you already started to do it) and Also the
early proto-Romanian Phonetic System in the same period of time.
If the 2 Phonetic Systems of that times (NOT OF TODAY) will be
almost similar we have to admit that Albanian and Romanian are
genetically related, if not we have to admit that the common things
have to be explained ONLY by their vicinity somewhere in times.
I want to find out the truth on this issue debated for about 200
hundred years by Romanian Linguists. Not for the linguistic reasons
but to can understand the history of my people. For sure, you want to
find out too, which is the TRUTH here...
At the end doesn't matter here who has right or not....or if I am
or not an Ignorant.
Best regards,
marius
--- In
cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski
<piotr.gasiorowski@...> wrote:
> 02-02-04 21:40, alex wrote:
>
> > The Hungarian and Slavic (North and West-Slavic) examples won't
point in
> > that direction with respect to Romanian. And the big thing here
is ,
> > Albanian _is_ not a neighbour of Romanian.
> > At least they have not been neighbours for more as 1500 years
after some
> > sources and more as 2000 years after other sources.
>
> First, you overrate the similarity (and its importance). The
argument
> that the Romanian consonant inventory is a subset of the Albanian
system
> proves nothing: the same is true of English! Secondly, it isn't
true
> that Romanian and Albanian have been isolated from each other for
so
> long (1500 years -- the other number is simply absurd) unless you
> identify Romanian with Dacoromanian and forget how different the
ethnic
> geography of the Balkans was in the Middle Ages. There are large
> Aromanian communities in Albania even today, so Albanian and Balkan
> Romance are still neighbours!
>
> Piotr