Re: [tied] Nakh Daghestan and the origins of agriculture

From: Alexander Stolbov
Message: 29867
Date: 2004-01-21

John Croft wrote:

> Amongst NE Caucasian she shows that there are two sub-families - Nakh
> (including Ingush, Chechen and and the moribund Batsbi), and
> Daghestan (which includes about 6 languages, Avar-Andic, Tsezic, Lak,
> Dargi, and Lezgian).

Usually the 3rd branch - the Hurrito-Urartic group - is added.

> Nichols suggests information from both halves
> of the family tree is necessary in order to establish that a word is
> inherited from Proto-Nakh-Daghestanian, and shows that on linguistic
> grounds these two languages must have diverged significantly before
> Indo-European, at least 6,000 BCE.

What a technique does she use for such estimations?

> But she suggests that this date
> is far too young and because the various languages are in cultural
> contact, she suggests that this date is reduced by the degree of
> borrowing that has occurred between the languages. (This may push
> the dispersal up to 7-8,000 BCE).

If one takes into account the cognates listed below, these dates must be
rejected because of the following reasons:
- Domesticated cattle (bulls) arreared in the Near East only in the 7th
mill. BC;
- The Secondary Products Revolution took place even much later;
- As can be seen from the Starostin's North Caucasian Etymology database,
there is a word for pots among commom NEC roots:
http://iiasnt.leidenuniv.nl/cgi-bin/response.cgi?flags=engnnnl&root=config&b
asename=\data\cauc\caucet&first=1&sort=proto&text_proto=&method_proto=beginn
ing&text_meaning=pot&method_meaning=beginning&text_nakh=&method_nakh=beginni
ng&text_aand=&method_aand=beginning&text_cez=&method_cez=beginning&text_lak=
&method_lak=beginning&text_darg=&method_darg=beginning&text_lezg=&method_lez
g=beginning&text_khin=&method_khin=beginning&text_abad=&method_abad=beginnin
g&text_comment=&method_comment=beginning&text_any=&method_any=substring
The Near East farmer communities get acquainted with pottery only in the 7th
mill. BC.

Besides, this database gives also a North Caucasian form for the yoke, which
was invented as late as in the 4th. mill. BC:
http://iiasnt.leidenuniv.nl/cgi-bin/response.cgi?flags=engnnnl&root=config&b
asename=\data\cauc\caucet&first=1&sort=proto&text_proto=&method_proto=beginn
ing&text_meaning=yoke&method_meaning=beginning&text_nakh=&method_nakh=beginn
ing&text_aand=&method_aand=beginning&text_cez=&method_cez=beginning&text_lak
=&method_lak=beginning&text_darg=&method_darg=beginning&text_lezg=&method_le
zg=beginning&text_khin=&method_khin=beginning&text_abad=&method_abad=beginni
ng&text_comment=&method_comment=beginning&text_any=&method_any=substring

> *stu = "bull"
> *ko = "ram" (Semitic *kir?)
> *Vlha = "wool"
> *Muq = "barley"
> *nVx, or *Vnx = "dairy product" (Cheese?)

Alexander