Re: Tor/Tur/(e)

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "m_iacomi" <m_iacomi@...> wrote:

> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" wrote:
>
> >>>> "Zürich" is a corrupted germanized form of Latin "Turicum" --
> >>>> the name Romans give to the city they founded in 15 B.C. --

which

> >>>> has nothing to do with "Thor", being probably connected to

Celtic

> >>>> "dur" `water`.
> >>
> >>> Full of Tur-/Tor- names. As for what *tur- in Turicum is, none

of

> >>> us can say.
> >>
> >> Well, a 100% safety would be excessive, but since:
> >> a) the city was founded by Romans in 15 B.C. and

called "Turicum";

> >> b) first inhabitants were Celtic lake dwellers;
> >> c) "dur" means `water` in Celtic;
> >
> > Thus, in the local Celtic, /d/ > /t/, but no change in /k/?
>
> "-icum" is the Latin ending. Whick /k/ are you referring at?

<-acum> is a Celtic ending. It was used also in new towns founded by
the Romans, even with Latin roots, eg. *Juliacum > Jülich. I assumed
<-icum> was a parallel Celtic suffix.

>
> >> d) there were no "Thor"-inspirational sources in immediate

vicinity

> >> of the city at Roman establishment: Alamans came centuries later;
> >
> > Circular.
>
> No. That's what history says.

Your argument is circular, not your recounting of historical facts.

>If you think local Celtic population
> were responsible for propagating the cult of a foreign god just for
> making a nice placename, you have to bring out some more stuff than
> a vague sound similarity.

Why foreign? Snorri has Thor move about also outside Thrace.

> >>> I'm just observing that the element *tur- is all over the place.
> >>
> >> Which place? Examples?!
> >
> > In the link I gave.
>
> Well, according to your fitness criteria ("element *tur-" -- BTW,
> there is no need of *), I can make similar cases for placenames
> containing say initial "element tar-" or "element ter-". A short
> string of characters as "tVr-" has little meaning in itself (if
> any meaning is to be considered). See also above.
>

The reason I concentrated on *tur-/*tor- is the Hermun-duri/Turingi
name. Those ethnonyms state that they were a 'tur' people, whatever
that means. I think the Shahname talks of one part of the world taken
by the Turan people?

> >> Outside Germanic area, why on earth should a geographical unit
> >> name containing the initial _string of characters_ "tur-"

or "tor-"

> >> assigned a particular meaning to that string (as "element"), and
> >> further assumed that meaning has to be related to "Thor"?! That
> >> sounds pretty bad for usual pertinence standards in linguistics.
> >> Not every "tur" ("tor") in the world has something to do with

your

> >> favorite matching god name (for instance, Romanians have "tur" as
> >> legitimate word meaning `trousers' posterior` but I wouldn't

relate

> >> it even for a joke with the mighty Thor...).
> >
> > Last someone went ballistic I think my favorite God's name was

Odin?

>
> Your {favorite God name} might be Odin (I wouldn't really bet on
> that; anyway it's OT),

It isn't.

>but your {favorite _matching_ god name} (for
> placenames with initial "tor-/tur-") must be Thor.
>

Your logic has won me over. I will see if I can find time to write
more about the Marsi.

> > I proposed that Snorri's account of Thor's stay in Thrace meant
> > that he was known in Europe Beyond and before any Germani. As
> > counterargument you offer that everyone knows that's not true.
>
> I did not offer any counterargument, I simply contested two bad
> examples. OTOH, Thor might have been _known_ in Thrace (though from
> being known to being _popular_ and _adopted_ there is a long-long
> way to go), but this cannot account for an argument that most
> European people in antiquity (including Celts) were very willing
> to use his name as root for placenames. Were you despotical ruler
> of (say) Germany, would you call a new city "Allahstadt"? :-)
>

No, "Kreuzberg" is OK. No reason to rock the boat.

Torsten