From: tgpedersen
Message: 29554
Date: 2004-01-14
> At 7:48:58 AM on Tuesday, January 13, 2004, tgpedersen wrote:BTW I mis-remembered Udolph's qute of someone else's definition
>
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott" <BMScott@...>
> > wrote:
>
> >> At 5:47:54 AM on Thursday, January 8, 2004, tgpedersen
> >> wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>>> Udolph is very insistent that the place names (eg.
> >>>>>>>>> -horst/-hurst) indicate that the Anglo-Saxon
> >>>>>>>>> migration took place from the interior of Germany,
>
> [...]
>
> >> Why does he think that these data indicate that the AS
> >> migration took place from the interior of Germany?
>
> > Because England and the interior of Germany is where these
> > place names are found of course. This is so obvious he
> > doesn't even state it.
>
> It isn't obvious at all. Here are his distributional data
> as you gave them, with comments.
>
> lage: Large concentration between the rivers Ems and Weser
>
> This would appear to be irrelevant, as it doesn't occur in
> England.
>
> kreek: Large concentration in East Flanders, a few spread in
> England, a few in Westphalia
>
> In England the element is mostly a borrowing of ON
> <kriki> occurring in minor place-names. I know of only
> one English place-name that might contain an OE cognate,
> <Creeksea> (Essex). This element also appears to be
> irrelevant; it certainly doesn't point to the interior of
> Germany.
>
> wapel: A few in England and in the Low German area west of
> the Elbe, three in Southern Jutland
>
> Both the distribution and the linguistic evidence indicate
> that this is an Anglo-Frisian but primarily Frisian
> element (OFris <wapul>, <wepel> 'pool, mire'). The OE
> cognate <wapol>, <wapul> is recorded only in a gloss in
> the sense 'bubble, froth', but there is a derived verb
> <wapolian>, <wapelian> 'to bubble, pour forth'. So far as
> I know, the element is probable in a couple of place-names
> and doubtful in a couple more.
>
> horst: Large concentrations in Kent, Sussex, Lake District,
> Eastern Netherlands, Westphalia, North of Lower Elbe
> (Holstein, Mecklenburg), West of Lower Oder, some along
> Middle Rhine.
>
> That doesn't look like what I'd call the interior of
> Germany, but perhaps he's using 'interior' rather loosely.
> It is at least more to the point than the first three.
>
> ufer: Concentration along the Middle Rhine, spread all over
> England, a few in the Low German areas west of the Elbe
>
> Finally. (Though one has to be a bit careful with the
> English evidence, as OE <o:fer> is not always easily
> distinguished from some other elements, notably <ofer>
> 'a slope, a hill, a ridge'.) I believe that there is also
> archaeological evidence connecting some of the early
> invaders with the Middle Rhine.
>