[tied] Re: *(H-)p/bh[-r/l-] again again

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@...> wrote:

> On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 13:15:36 +0000, Marco Moretti
> <marcomoretti69@...> wrote:
>
> >--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@...>

wrote:

> >> On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 12:33:10 +0000, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Have any of the Basque roots using this assumed /r/-containing
> >> >collective suffix been suggested as loan words into Basque?
> >>
> >> Not to my knowledge. They are mostly basic vocabulary without

any

> >known
> >> outside connections.
> >
> >I can only notice /zilar/ "silver", almost surely from Afro-

Asiatic.

>
> But if so, -arr is not the collective suffix, but merely due to the

fact

> that the borrowed item ended in -arr.

If we match e.g. Akkadian s.irpu(m) "silver" or Hebrew s.a:ro:ph "to
purify metals" (with s. I transcribe the enphatic affricate), where
is the -arr? I can only think that when the loanword happened, a
collective Vasconic -arr was added (leading to dissimilation of the
first -r- in -l- or in -d-? thorny, and there are dialectal variants
that point to *zillarr instead).

> >I find also interesting thestrange /(h)ondar/ "sand". The /-nd-/
> >cluster is rare; what etymology can you suggest?
> >Trask thought a connection with Latin /fondus/ as in

Basque /ondo/,

> >but I'm not convinced at all.
>
> The fact that the word means "residue" (Azkue: (1) residuo, heces;

(2)

> arena [de río]; (3) playa [=ondartza]; (4) borra de líquidos, esp.

del

> café; (5) último; (6) retal; (7) fondo) surely makes a derivation

from Lat.

> <fundum> VLat. <fondo> > *bondo + -arr > hondarr the most likely
> hypothesis. The only doubt I have is that this would make -arr a
> productive collective suffix until quite recently, which is slightly
> unexpected.

It's what I meant to say, it is would be quite strange, isn't it?

> >Another bizarre item is /zamar/, that Trask derive from /zabau/ <
> >Lat. /sabanum/. /zamau/ is certainly from /sabanum/, but /zamar/

can

> >be unrelated with /zamau/.
>
> Catalan samarra, samarreta "shirt" is derived by Coromines from Bq.

zamar

> "fleece, sheep-skin coat". I don't think the source can be

sabanum, but I

> have no alternative suggestions (zamar < *sanbar, *danbar?).

Thorny again. Trask himself is unable to explain why to a borrowed
Latin item was added a suffix -arr.

> >> It's possible that ilar (irar ~ idar) "pea(s)" is a borrowing

from

> >> Indo-European *p(e)it- "food, pea", with addition of the -arr
> >collective
> >> suffix (*pit-arr > idarr ~ irarr > ilarr).
> >
> >It is fully possible, although there are also NEC similar forms

that

> >cannot be ruled out a priori. It is a difficult case, and I'm

still

> >ruminating about this etymon.
> >But I am not incline to consider /*p(e)it-/ as IE for "pea". Apart
> >from Greek /pi:^sos/ (< /*pi:t-/ ?) and latin /pi:sum/ (from

Greek),

>
> Grk. písos, Lat. pisum (short i).

Ooops! My memory failed. Perhaps it is a signal of an incipient form
of demence. I wonder where I picked this long /i:/ up.

> >what IE connection can you find in other languages with this

peculiar

> >meaning?
>
> Isn't that enough? In the general sense of "food", we have OIr.

<ith>

> "*Nahrung, Korn, Getreide", OWe. <it> (< Pre-Celtic *pitu-).

Celtic /*itus/ derives from /*pitu-/ and developed to the Welsh word,
I knew of it. But it central meaning seems to be "corn". An homophone
item is found also in Welsh hydronyms, but in that case it cannot
have the same origin.
But connections with peas are still definitely strange to me.

Best wishes

Marco