[tied] Re: PIE's closest relatives

From: Marco Moretti
Message: 29434
Date: 2004-01-12

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@...> wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 13:04:37 +0000, Marco Moretti
> <marcomoretti69@...> wrote:
>
> >--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@...>
wrote:
> >> On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 06:05:50 +0000, Glen Gordon
<glengordon01@...>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Marco inputs:
> >> >>Akkadian /eru:/ is not from /*weru:/.
> >> >
> >> >Alright. Where _is_ it from?
> >>
> >> The usual transcription erû(m) (not eru:) suggests a contracted
> >vowel,
> >> probably /i/ + /u/. I think the form can be reconstructed as
> >*weri?-u(m)
> >> (acc. *weri?-a(m), etc.), but that's based on old notes, I'm not
> >100% sure.
> >>
> >> An interesting word in this context is the Hebrew for copper, <?
> >arad>
> >> (aleph-resh-daleth).
> >
> >In Akkadian final -u:(m) (I have no characters with circumflex
> >accents on my keybord, in Italy they are considered useless) can
be
> >not only from /i/ + /u/ but also from /a/ + /u/ or from /u/ + /u/.
>
> Yes. In this case, however, the form seems to go back to /i/+/u/
(but my
> source is indirect: Vennemann, to be exact).
>
> >Now, I know the Hebrew word /?ara:d/, "bronze", but I'm not
satisfied
> >with an ancient /w/ becoming /?/ in Hebrew.
>
> Semitic w- > Hebrew y-.

Yes, my favorite example is of course:
/yayin/ "wine" < /*waynu/,
but there are many others: /ya:re:ah_/ "moon", /ya:ro:q/ "green" and
so on. Semitic w- never changes to ?-.

> >/?ara:d/ is probably
> >unrelated both with /eru:(m)/ and with /urudu/, due to impervious
> >phonetic difficulties.
>
> It cannot correspond to (w)erû(m), but a connection with <urudu>
doesn't
> seem too far-fetched. An original *arudu could explain both forms,
with
> vowel harmony giving Sum. urudu and Hebr. ?arad(a), respectively.

Tonic /a:/ vowel in Hebrew /?ara:d/ is in any case difficult, but
your idea is very interesting. In this case, we should think that
German Erz "(copper-)ore" < Old High German aruzzi < *arudi- is also
related. Details of this loanword are however still obscure.

I cannot acces Venneman's pages, they are simply "sclerotized". Can
you provide some useful link? I know that Venneman studied Basque and
Germanic substratum, although it's thought to be unreliable.

Sincerely

Marco