[tied] Re: IE prefix "*s"

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski
<piotr.gasiorowski@...> wrote:

> 13-12-03 16:54, Abdullah Konushevci wrote:
>
> > I guess that its origin can't be devided from PIE *ksun-, basic

form

> > *su(n)- (cf. Greek syn-, Slavic so-, s-.
>
> The origin of some Albanian prefixes will probably remain debatable
> forever, since they are too strongly reduced to preserve sufficient
> information about their earlier form. Some are certainly of Latin
> origin, e.g. ç- (~ sh- ~ zh-) < *ds^- < dis-. The partly

homophonous

> prefix sh- (~ zh-) may also reflect Lat. ex-. This of course

doesn't

> exclude the possibility that some instances of <sh-> reflect a

prefix of

> native origin (perhaps even the same *h1eg^s- that appears in

Latin).

> I'm not sure where z- (~ s-) comes from (I have no access to

Çabej's

> classic study of Albanian prefixes; Cimochowski gives the earlier

form

> as *dz- ~ *ds- but doesn't explain it further). At any rate, *(k)

sun- is

> a most unlikely source -- the initial would not have developed into
> Albanian /s-/ or /z-/.
>
> PSl. *sU(n)- (*so~- in old compound nouns) is most likely the same

thing

> (modulo apophony) as Skt. sa(m)-, Germanic *sam- and Gk. (h)a-,

namely

> PIE *som- 'together, with'. There are some perfectly parallel forms

like

> PSl. *so~logU (< *som-logHo-): Gk. alokHos (< *sm.-logHo-

) 'bedmate,

> spouse' or PSl. *so~dU 'trial, judgement' < *som-dHh1-o- 'putting
> together, confrontation', as in Skt. sandHi-, sandHa-.
>
> In some Slavic languages, including Polish, the prepositions and
> preverbs *sU 'with' and *iz 'out (of)' have merged phonetically as

s- ~

> z- ~ zV-, and the original contrast of meaning has consequently

become

> blurred. They have to all intents and purposes fallen together as

one

> preposition/preverb with several different meanings.
>
> Piotr

************
Outcome of PIE /*s/ > Alb. /s/ we have attested in *snuso:s >
nuse 'bride', in *super > sipër 'over' (cf. hip 'to climb up, to go
up' from *up-er-) some of basic words of the Albanian inherited
dictionary.
About Lat. dis > ds^- > ç I know it by Pokorny, but I really doubt
that it's not from Alb. prefix t- + sh > ç, like is t- + s > c.
I think that about PIE prefixes *am-bhi- > mbë-/mbi-, probably from
much older one *ant-bhi- 'from both side' > ndë-/ndi- and *epi-
'near, at, again' > pë-/p-, due to aphaeresis, so characteristc from
Proto-Albanian and Albanian, we shouldn't have any reason to doubt.

Konushevci