Re: [tied] Re: Dacian - /H/ -> seems possible

07-12-03 17:16, Abdullah Konushevci wrote:

> Look here, Piotr. You like to accuse me and any linguist who think
> like me that we like to enforce Illyrian-Albanian continuum as,
> probably, nationalist, autochthonist or the hell know what not just
> to cut off every discussion about this issue, without giving any
> sound counterarguments.

First, I haven't ever tried to intimidate you by calling you any such
names. I have only objected to _your_ imputation of a political agenda
to the "allochthonist" camp. I've tried linguistic counterarguments many
times, but I've always got the same kind of mantra-like response from
you, showing your own lack of understanding what constitutes valid
evidence in linguistics. This time is no different (see below).

> I claim, based in facts, that in Albanian is common, to not say,
> proverbial, aphaeresis of unstressed vowels at the beginning of the
> words and I based it in many examples:
>
> Lat. amicu > Alb. mik `friend',
> Lat. Apriles > Alb. prill,
> Lat. Augustus > Alb. gusht `august',
> Lat. avunculs > ungj `uncle'
> Greek anaphora > naforë `communion bread', etc.
>
> Based in those arguments, I claim also that this is too
> characteristic on place names, probably of Illyrian origin:

Certainly. But this doesn't contradict the hypothesis that Latinised
Illyrian placenemes were borrowed by the Albanians from Balkan Latin
long after the extinction of spoken Illyrian. In fact, those placenames
behave _exactly_ like Latin loans with respect to Albanian sound
changes. They show vowel aphaeresis, Tosk rhotacism etc., but they don't
exhibit the change of *sk > h, for example (cf. Scodra --> Shkodër).

> AVLONA > Alb. VLONA/VLORA ... derived from PIE *aulos `tube,
> hole'. Indeed form its zero-grade form *ulos-. And Valona/Vlora is
> really posited in the lowland, in the valley and through it goes one
> of most strategic and important channel in the Mediterranean Sea -
> Otranto.

It's quite possible that the IE etymology of Aulona is just that
(*h2aul- with a suffix), but your gratuitous assumption a protoform
based on the nil-grade *h2ul- explains neither ancient <Aul-> nor modern
<Vl->. The fact that cognates of *h2aul- may exist in Albanian doesn't
prove that Aulona is an Albanian name: other branches also have this
root. I have commented before on the _non-Albanian_ development of old
/au/ in this name and see no reason to repeat myself.

> For the same reason, we may claim that also attested city name
> ASTIBOS get its name SHTIP through aphaeresis of unstressed /a/ and
> through evolution /st/ > /sht/ charcteristic for Albanian.

Same thing again and again. Loans from Latin also show aphaeresis and
the change of st > sht, so the occurrence of either or both of them
proves nothing as regards the status of such names.

> This force me to claim too that also AENONA (today) > NIN and OSINIUM
>> SINJ have these forms due to Albanian soundlaw. About treating the –
> ona element by Slavic language as –IN, see: NARONA > Norin, SKARDONA
>> Skradin, SALONA > Solin, etc. Collective plural –INI- in OSINIUM is
> also present in: Olc-INI-on/Ulc-INI-um, Rhiz-INI-on (also Rhizana),
> Germ-INI-um, Delm-INI-on, etc.
>
> And which are your linguistic objections?

Objections to what? There's no cogent argument in the above, just a
listing of names plus the "Albanian soundlaw" mantra. I hope you don't
want to argue that ancient <-o:na> and <-inium> are the same suffix.
That would be patently wrong: the substitution of -o:n(a) --> *-u:n- >
*-yn- > -in- is a purely Slavic affair and has nothing to do with
Albanian developments _or_ with <-inium>. Aphaeresis is not a hallmark
of Albanian. Sinj comes fron Vsinj (an attested older form) < *vUsinjI
< *UsinjI, and I'm sure the passage from <Aeno:na> to <Nin> requires no
Albanian intermediary either.

Piotr