Re: [tied] Dacian - /H/ -> seems not possible

On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 02:09:45 +0000, alexandru_mg3 <alexandru_mg3@...>
wrote:

>Hello Miguel,
> Thanks for your answer.
>
> One question:
> You mean 'initial H' (like 'herba' or 'all the H' (like
>in 'apprehendere' too) ?

All of them.

> But in the romanian 'substratum' words ('old words' but not
>Latins) we don't have any /H/.
>
> In this case we can have 2 interpretations :
>
> a) Not the native speakers Learn Latin in Balkans (like
>everywhere). The Romance population in Balkans (like everywhere) were
>formed basically by Romans Colonists (Latins or not, but earlier
>Latin speakers). This fit your explanation and Albanian /H/ too ->
>but is hard to believe viewing historical similar situation in Europe
>(Russian , Turk, Austrian Empires).
>
> b) the native population that learn Latin in Balkans didn't
>have a /H/ too (few Dacian toponyms exists like Hormia (could be a
>wrong spelling)).

The easiest interpretation is that the native population adopted Latin as
its first language (along with any Latin colonists immagrated into teh
area), and after a while everybody forgot how to pronounce /h/, as any
Latin speaker.

> Could you tell me if the Celtic populations have a /H/ before
>they were Romanized?

I'm not sure. /h/'s come and go. PIE *p developed into Celtic /h/, and
this was still pronounced in some Celtic parts at the time the Greeks and
Romans first came into contact with them (Hercynia (*Perkunia) silva,
Hibernia (*Piwer-) = Éire, Ireland). But Celtic lost that /h/ soon
afterwards. The next development was that /s/ became /h/, a process that
was already far developed in the Insular Celtic languages by the time of
Old Irish and Old Welsh. It may also have affected an area of Gaulish
before Caesar's conquest, but I'm not sure.


=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
mcv@...