Re: Non-Indo-European in Germanic

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...>
wrote:

> In a footnote Udolph mentions a rumour (1988) from a colleague of

a

> dissertation being written in Minich (but not heard of again in

1993)

> according to which the Jastorf culture might have come from the

south

> (which would fit in with Cimmerians > Cimbri etc).

A problem with proposing a Cimmeri-Cimbri connection- mb must
precede mm, which is probably why Strabo and Poseidonius suggested
the Cimmeri came from the Cimbri, migrating eastwards, as they must
have been aware that this phonetic phenomenon was unlikely, unlike
Plutarch, who believed the Cimbri came from the Cimmeri.

While, the Thraco-Cimmerian remains found in Hungary in a Hallstatt
level in conjunction with the seemingly Thracian/Scythian origin of
the style of the Gundestruppe cauldron can be taken to be evidence
of a connection between the Cimbri and Cimmeri, there's no
linguistic evidence for this connection, unless you want to believe
the Cimmerian presence in Hungary was absorbed by the Hallstatt
Celtic population and migrated to northern Europe as the Cimbri.

regarding the rest of what you said, what language would you suggest
was spoken in the Nordwestblock area if you had to guess?

-Michael


On might imagine

> an alternative scenario in which the language of the Jastorf

culture

> was (pre-)Germanic and the 28%-language was the one it ran down
> (around 600 BCE then).
>
> Another thing pointed out by W. P. Schmid is:
> Caesar: Vacalus, Tacitus: Vahalis for the river Waal (branch of

the

> Rhine on the Netherlands), which means that somewhere between 50

BCE

> and 100 CE the Germanic sound shift took place there. On the other
> hand:
> Tacitus: Caesia silva = Heissi-Wald, Heisingen south of Essen in

the

> Ruhr district, so the Germanic sound shift took place here after

100

> CE.
>
> Other than that, if Germanic replaced the Nordwestblock, why

should

> it politically important enough to supply 28% of the vocabulary?

And

> shouldn't we expect more dialectal variation in the distribution

of

> 28%-language words in the Germanic languages? Udolph shows,
> convincingly to me, that the distribution of placenames follow

either

> a north-south (example: the -leben, -lev names) or an east-west
> (example: -horst, -hurst) consistent with two expansions from
> Germany, one north, one west. The latter would have been the one

that

> ran down the Nordwestblock. Note that Odin set Balder to run
> Westphalia (and Ostphalia?), and according to the Merseburg

charms,

> Odin and Phol (same guy) rode together (in his wild hunt to

conquer?).

>
> Si non c'e vero...
>
> Torsten