Oborî

alex wrote:

> Abdullah Konushevci wrote:
>
>> (12) oborî(to put down),-yes
>
> OK, one wants to see why I doubt about same of them. For instance
> "oborî" to put down is considered to be Slavic. You mean it is
> Slavic too. I have my doubts because:
>
> -the verb has a tematic conjugation " obor, obori, oboarã" and it
> is usualy not aplayable to Slavic loans

BS. Slavic loanwords like "omorî" or "vârî" follow the same pattern
of conjugation as Latin inherited verbs of strong IV-th conjugation
in "î" in Romanian. The same helds for "incoatives". There is nothing
to be said about it, just the most straightforward analogy.

> -there are the verbs "doborî" [...] with unknown etymology
> - there is the verb "coborî" [...] The etymology of this one is
> too with unknon etymology, DEX means "see pogorî"
> -there is the verb "pogorî" which means the same as "coborî"
> and is with unknown etymology too.
> -there is the verb "scoborî" with the same meaning as "coborî",
> just prefixed with "s-"

It's obvious the verbs are related and the initial consonant has
an expressive role. Probably, the authors of DEX have not decided
clearly how to explain the consonants, but the Slavic origin of
these words is transparent.

> The word "pogorî" seems to me to be Slavic. If one accept that
> pogorî is a compound of Slavic po+gore (on mountain)

The idea is not so bad after all, but is invalidated by "oboriti"
`to lower` which still exists in Serbo-Croatian for instance. OTOH,
"pogor-" is also Slavic (SCr "pogorSati" `to aggravate`, related to
the idea of `to lower [the state]`). This is more likely a simple
sound fit.

> then the verb "pogorî" appears to be Slavic indeed but the rest
> it does not appear to be Slavic.

Why?

> About the rest, my opinion is that here one has to deal with the
> root "bor-" here (extened with "c" in some exemples). This could
> reflect a substratual word from /o/ grade of *PIE bher-, Pokorny
> #229 with the meaning of "erheben, aufheben" .

...`to rise`, that is all on the contrary. Your supposition is
very strange (not to speak about grades...) since it doesn't bring
anything new with respect to Slavic "oboriti" but the total lack
of indications allowing one to infer a substratal word. That is a
pure example of totally unsupported speculation.

> One will ask why I consider this can be substratual one?
> I guess in Dacian we have some data for making maybe a connection.
> ( I say Dacian because just in Dacian space , not in the Thracian
> one I have these testimonies).
> Thus , it is very possible that one word for "mountain" or "high
> place" has been in Dacian "bor-" or "bur-".

... but more probably, that Dacian word has something to do with
"mal".

> We have ancient topoynms in Dacia as "Buridava", Tribe name as
> "Buridavenses".

So?! we have in Romanian "borangic", "borcan", "buric", "burzului",
"bursuc", which have no relationship with your supposed root; what
makes you think that Dacian toponym was related to it?!

> The suffix "-ca" is for sure of substratual origin

That's for fun, isn't it?!

> and it is several time found in Dacian toponyms.

Well, time for sleep has come. Toponyms' endings (not suffixes)
are not verbal.

> What will make the connection with Dacian data and actual Romanian
> language?

Lemme guess... wishful thinking?!

> Well, verbs as "aburca"= to go up on the mountains

"aburca" means `to mount, to put something up, to get on some
animal (horse, donkey), to climb`. The mountain part exists only
in your imagination.

> and toponyms as "Borcea" and "Borceni"

... of undoubtable autochtonous origin and mountain-linked... :-)))
Do you have something else?

> aburca; cf DEX unknown etymology: like "urca"
> urca : vt (scara) to mount; (un munte) to climb ; (preturile) to
> raise; (a înalta) to put up vi to rise; (a crste) to grow up;
> (într-un) to get up; cf DEX = maybe from Latin *oricare ( = oriri)

False. In DEX it's used the word "probabil" (`probably`), not
"posibil" (`maybe`). Maybe (or probably...) you didn't make the
difference. So, what about autochtony of so-called (verbal) suffix
-ca?! :-)

If you tried to make a case around "oborî" and similar verbs, the
start is rather poor.

Marius Iacomi